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ponyakr · 10:56 PM

'73 was a very eventful year for Pontiac. Some good & some bad. To me, the bad was the complete body style change for the A-body. That's all I'll say about that, because some here love the '73 A-body.

The big deal was the release of the SD455 engine. And, there were a few Pontiac racers that immediately got one & put it on the track. One of these guys was John Clegg. He bought one, took it to Indy, & won his D/S class !

I may have already posted this. But it needs to go right here, again.

https://www.facebook.com/NHRA/videos/2196660753953292/

I suppose one of the most famous SD455 Stockers was the Herslow & Morlock "Celluloid Hero" E/SA record holder, which made the cover of SS&DI mag.

ponyakr · 01:17 AM

Of course, not all '73 Bird Stockers ran the SD455. They could run a 400 or the D-port 455.

In recent years, the only 2 Stockers, running as '73 models, that I can think of, is the car raced by Michael Brand, & the yellow car that was raced by Adam Davis. The yellow car has changed hands.

Both cars have run strong. Michael won his class at Indy, in 2015. Adam was RU in his class. Michael ran 1.010 under. Adam ran 1.048 under. 2 pretty strong Birds.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2015#indextop

For the 2019 season, as many here know, Michael switched his Bird over to SD455 power. Did a quick check. A 10.77 was the quickest time I saw. The car wasn't as far under as it was with the D-port engine. But, maybe it went quicker than that. Anybody know it's best ET, with the SD455 ?

Here's a re-post of a link to the video of a pass, with the SD455 in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO-04aqNm5I

Michael ran the car as a Formula, which as most here know, could use a T/A hood & shaker, without any spoilers or wheel flares. So, I assume that the only body changes he had to make was to change out the hoods & install the shaker.

ponyakr · 01-31-2020, 06:42 AM

Before we leave '73, I wanna mention this. I've already posted that the '73-'77 A-body is not my favorite Pontiac body style. But, that has not kept Pontiac guys from racin 'em, in both Stock & SS.

Right now, the earliest '73 A-body Stocker I know of was raced by Mick Leiferman. Seems I remember somebody mentioning that he may have ran an SD455 in it. And, as we've discussed, NHRA allows the SD455 in a '73 GTO. If it did run an SD455, it was indeed a rare piece of Pontiac racing history.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2080

But I can't verify that, one way or the other. In the only pic I have of the car, I can't make out the class designation, on the side. I can make out an SA. So, that means it was an auto trans Stocker. Can anybody tell the exact class, from the pic below ?

Anyhow, he could have run a 400, a D-port 455, or an SD455. If I have ever seen a pic of another '73 GTO Stocker, I am not aware of it. But, there probably were a few, in earlier years. If anybody has pics of any, please post 'em.

As mentioned, Mick held a nat record for 5 years running, & was RU at Indy 3 times straight. So, that would make us think that the '73 GTO probably ran pretty good, too. But I have no record of any performance results from the car.

ponyakr · 10:09 AM

Now for '74 Birds. There have been lots of '74 Birds in Stock & SS. That '74 400 engine seems to be very popular with quite a few class racers.

The Class Racer Info site shows it to have a 275 NHRA hp factor, for all Stockers. And, it can be run in Formys, T/A's, and all A-bodies, including wagons.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...1&MAKE=Pontiac

The D-port 455 & SD455 can also be run in the Formy & T/A.

In recent years, the only three '74 bird Stockers I remember being in competition, was the Lindy Lindholm Formy, that was stolen, a Texas T/A, driven by Hunter Pierdolla, and the Bob Mulry Formy. Bob's car was probably the quickest Pontiac Stocker ever, against it's index, going more than 1.5 sec under, going more than a sec under MANY times, & qualifying #1 at lots or races. I'll use the nest post for more on Bob's car.

Lindy's car ran lots of West coast races. Usually qualified well.

Hunter Pierdolla ran his Bird in nat events in Houston & Dallas a few times. Also ran some other div 4 races. A pic of the car was posted on the John Clegg Mission Garage site. It also has Mission Garage on the side of it. I read that Hunter's Dad, Forest, built the car.

It runs in H/SA. So, from my calculations, it has the D-port 455 engine, with an NHRA 306hp factor. A quick search found a best ET of 11.159, which was .991 under the index. That reminds me of just how quick Stockers are now. H-O set the nat rec, with a '74 SD455 car, in SS/KA, at 11.31. This car went quicker than that, in Stock !

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=309188

The older pic of the engine, shows it with SD 455 on the shaker scoop. So, I suppose it had the SD455, at that time. But, using an online calculator, the lowest class I can see that it could run, with the SD455, would be G/SA. The hp factor for stock auto is 335hp. The NHRA weight for the T/A is 3668lbs. So, that comes out to just under 11lbs/hp.

3668 lbs divided by 335hp = 10.949..........

That means the car is a natural F/SA. But since you can add weight to make the next lower class, with just a small amount added, the car could run G/SA, @ 11lbs/hp. If ya'll see something I'm missing that would allow a '74 SD455 T/A to run H/SA, please post that info.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2093

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

ponyakr · 01-31-2020, 11:36 AM

OK, now for the Bob Mulry '74 Formy. I just recently learned about this car. It was awesome !

It seems that Bob Mulry & Bob Aceves teamed up for this car. Bob Aceves has also run a real quick '68 Bird Stocker.

I'll post a few of the big qualifying numbers. I'll also post pics of 3 nat records the car set, in J/SA, K/SA, & L/SA. For the L/SA record, they had to swap out the Formy body parts, for T/A parts, because the NHRA weight for the T/A is heavier.

#1 @ - 1.579

ponyakr · 01-31-2020, 10:41 PM

Here is a partial quote from a post Skip Fix made on the SS thread.

"...John Schloe...has a 69 Bird in stock that was running RAIV heads(and in the 10s) but for the past 20 years D ports still in the 10s. "

So, let's take a look at some race results & see what we can find. John lives on the West coast. He entered the Winter Nats many times. The DRC files begin with 1998. So, we'll look at the 1998 Winter Nats 1st.

He was entered, but at that time just barely ran under his index.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop

The 1st Winter Nats(hereafter called WN) where he broke into the 10's, was in 2002, with a 10.94.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2002#indextop

In 2003, he turned a 10.77, which was more than a sec under the D/SA index.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2003#indextop

In 2007, he turned a 10.69, but it was in C/SA.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2007#indextop

In '08, he lowered it to a 10.62, in C/SA. .

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2008#indextop

In '10, he was 10.56, in D/SA.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2010#indextop

In '11, 10.53 in C/SA

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2011#indextop

In '13, 10.57 in D/SA

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2013#indextop

In '14, 10.54 in D/SA

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2014#indextop

In '17, 10.50 in C/SA.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2017#indextop

He did get into the 10.40's, in '18, with a 10.49 in C/SA, at this Fontana Stock/SS combo race.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=349366

This is the last event for which DRC has him listed, in a name search. It's a 2018 div 7 race. He went 10.51 in C/SA.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=351146

Here's the link to a video of one of his 10 sec runs, which was posted here several years back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7lK...=youtu.be&hd=1

Here's a race from last season where he ran a 10.519.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r=100#indextop

At this National Open race, he ran a 10.493. Assume his lowest ET is somewhere in the 10.40's. Anybody know for sure ?

https://www.facebook.com/nhrad7/phot...type=3&theater

ponyakr · 12:09 AM

Back to '73's, I found a another pic of Mick Leiferman's '73 GTO. It's black in this pic. Don't know if this was the color when he bought it, or he painted it that color, later.

And, to add to the '74 Stocker info, I noticed that Jack Matyas was on a 1998 Q-list, with a '74 Pontiac. Assume that would be the A-body '74 named "Chieftain".

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop

This '04 list shows Jack with a '74 Ventura. Don't know exactly which years he had which cars. So, it's possible that he was driving the GTO at both races, since a '74 Pontiac could be several different body styles. I now see that the A-body had #1546. The car he ran at both these races was number #1547. So, that seems to indicate that he was driving the GTO at both races.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=1653

Keith Seymore · 02-03-2020, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyakr

But I can't verify that, one way or the other. In the only pic I have of the car, I can't make out the class designation, on the side. I can make out an SA. So, that means it was an auto trans Stocker. Can anybody tell the exact class, from the pic below ?

H/SA.

It's pretty clear on my monitor at work.

K

ponyakr · 09:30 AM

Thanks for that info Keith !

Now I'd like to see if I can get a little input here.

There are some Stockers, of other brands, which are very competitive, running a 2-barrel carb. So, I got to thinking about it, & I can't remember ever seeing or even hearing of a Pontiac Stocker running a 2-barrel.

So, I looked up the NHRA hp factors on all the 2-barrel carb Pontiac engines, from '67 thru '76. It's very easy to see why most Pontiac guys have chosen not to choose a 2-barrel combo. For most of the early years, NHRA just uses the factory hp rating.

For example: The 265hp 350 engines have a 265hp factor. Well, the '77 400 4-barrel engine only has a 260hp factor. And the 290hp 400 engines have a 290hp factor. At those advertised hp numbers, those 2-barrel engines could not hope to be competitive.

But, when I came to the 1973-'74 2-barrel 350's, I discovered that NHRA had made a reduction in the hp factor, for the 350 2-barrel engines. It is down to 210hp. I asked a guy who was racing back in the day, and he told me about one guy who had run a Pontiac Lemans wagon, with a 2-barrel carb. Said it wasn't real quick, but quick enuff to compete. So, I'm guessing that wagon was probably responsible for getting the hp factor reduced. I've read that's the way it works. You build the car & race it. Then, if it runs slow & is not competitive, AND nobody else with that same combo is running quicker, you can petition NHRA for a reduction & many times get it.

Another reason why many didn't run a 400 or 455 2-barrel combo is probably because most of 'em came only in big cars. The one exception I found was for the '67 GTO. A 2-barrel 400 was available that year. But it's factor is 255hp, and the NHRA min chamber volume is 90cc. So, it would have fairly low CR. But, since it does have 400+ cubes, if someone were to build one of these & could get NHRA to lower the factor some, the combo MIGHT be competitive. But, who would wanna build a '67 GTO Stocker, especially one with a 2-barrel carb ?

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

I'm sure some of you guys are totally turned off by the thought of running a 2-barrel carb. But, think about it this way. We're talkin about Stock Eliminator class racing. Except for same-class heads-up runs, it's just a bracket race. You run off whatever time you dial in. The catch is, you have to be able to run your NHRA index, or quicker. If you can, you can win the race, even if you have to run some of the 8 sec Factory Stock cars. How cool would that be, to beat a $100,000 FS car, with a slow 2-barrel car.

So, if someone wanted to build a 2-barrel Pontiac Stocker, they'd have to figure out what year/engine/car combo would run it's index or better, even in hot weather. Well, after lookin at all the 2-barrel Pontiac combos, I've concluded that with the current NHRA hp factors, the 1973 2-barrel 350 has the best possible chance. It has a 210hp factor.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

It can be used in lots of '73 model Pontiacs. I like the idea of using a Ventura. But some might prefer a Bird, or even a heavy wagon.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2073

One drawback is that it uses the smaller 2-barrel carb, which has a venturi size of 1.186. The '73 Chevy 350 2-barrel engines use the larger carbs, with the 1.250 venturi. They're also allowed more compression than the Pontiac 350.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...MAKE=Chevrolet

The NHRA hp factor for the Camaro & Nova, with factory heads is 224hp. So, with less compression & smaller carb, the hp factor for the Pontiac is only 14hp lower. So, here's my whole point with this post. Considering all these factors, do ya'll think this '73 2-barrel 350 Pontiac engine could be built to make enuff power to run it's index, and still be legal ?

I know several of you guys have all sorts of computer programs & stuff that can estimate the power different combinations will produce. So, I'd like to tap into some of the smart tech, & see what ya'll can come up with.

Would also like to know if anybody here has done any dyno and/or drag strip testing with a 2-barrel Roch carb. I'd love to know how much they slow down a decent 350 or 400 engine vs a good Q-jet. Would also like to know how much slower the smaller Roch would be than the bigger Roch.

Guessing that some of the Chevy 2-barrel racers have done extensive dyno & strip testing. Haven't heard of any Pontiac guys doing any.

Sure will be glad when I win the big one & get my dyno. I'vs got LOTS of Pontiac engine testings I'd like to do.

So, any good info on Roch 2-barrel performance here ?

Just happened to think. I ran a big Roch on my 455 dirt track engine. That was the rule. Hey, I won a heat race, a trophy dash, a feature, and finished in the top 5 several times. So, the 2-barrel Roch did provide some performance.

What is the quickest ET you guys have run, with a 2-barrel Roch ?

ponyakr · 02-04-2020, 09:54 AM

The 350 2-barrel Ventura would run P/SA. It's index would be 13.45.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

So, do you guys think that '73 2-barrel engine could push a Ventura that quick ?

Keep in mind that it could run any rear gear ratio, any stall converter, & any 3-speed GM trans, with all the latest lightweight go-fast guts in it, including a lower 1st gear ratio. The top racers nowadays are running the tricked out TH200 trans. The car would also have the latest lightweight wheels, and the smallest tires that would provide the necessary hook. I think 9x30's are legal. But on a low power 2-barrel 350 car, I'm thinkin maybe you could get by with smaller lighter tires.

Hey, all this might sound like nit-pikin to many here. But, I can assure you, this is the way most class racers think. They are always trying to come up with something that will make their combo quicker, if only by a thousandth of a second. Why ? They wanna be able to run as quick as possible so that when they have to ran another car in their same class, they might be just quick enuff to win.

Even if they are nowhere near as quick as the quickest car in their class, at a particular race, they may draw a same class car that runs real close to their ET. It's for just such rounds that most class racers continually look for ways to go just a little bit quicker.

I've read that for many class racers, that's what they love about it. Workin on your stuff, & continually makin it quicker, within a set of rules. That's one of the things that makes it different from bracket racing.

ponyakr · 02:25 PM

"...Hey, all this might sound like nit-pikin to many here. But, I can assure you, this is the way most class racers think. They are always trying to come up with something that will make their combo quicker, if only by a thousandth of a second. Why ? They wanna be able to run as quick as possible so that when they have to ran another car in their same class, they might be just quick enuff to win.

Even if they are nowhere near as quick as the quickest car in their class, at a particular race, they may draw a same class car that runs real close to their ET. It's for just such rounds that most class racers continually look for ways to go just a little bit quicker.

I've read that for many class racers, that's what they love about it. Workin on your stuff, & continually makin it quicker, within a set of rules. That's one of the things that makes it different from bracket racing..."

After suggesting that doing away with heads-up racing, at some of the smaller races, might help attract new guys to Stock Eliminator, I was hit with F-bombs, backed up by many. Several of the guys say that heads-up runs is the ONLY reason they race Stock, & say that if heads-up racing is eliminated, they will quit racing Stock.

So, there you have it. Some of those guys have spent lots of money and/or time having a quick Stocker, they don't won't any low budget bracket racers in Stock, having a chance to win a round against a same class car, & they are very vocal about it.

That's not a put down of any Stock class racer. It's just a simple fact, which I have recently read about, first hand.

So, if by chance, anybody here has any thoughts of possibly building a Stocker, keep all this in mind. If you can just barely run under your index, you won't have a chance to win a round against a same class car.

But, the good news for low budget slow cars is, every car does not have a heads-up run, every race.

The dial-your-own breakout rounds, is what separates Stock from the Pro classes.
If your gonna win in heads-up racing classes, you gotta be the quickest, or very near the quickest car in your class, at a particular race.

For example: It's not very often that the #16 qualifier, in a Pro Stock field, will win the race. I haven't done any analysis. But, I'd guess that a large percentage of the Pro Stock winners are among the top 4 qualifiers.

Here's the Class Elims qualifying for last years Indy race.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

And here's the list of class winners. You can see that most of the class winners were also the quickest qualifier in their class. Some #1 qualifiers left too soon, losing the class win. And, the ET's of the #1 & #2 qualifiers, in some classes, were very close, & the #2 qualifier won.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

Anyhow, for these classes that had several cars in them, if the quickest car had met the slowest car, in elims, the slower car really had no chance, unless the quicker driver made a mistake, like a red light or a REAL slow light. Many times, there is enuff ET difference so that the quick car can afford a slow light & still have plenty of cushion, to beat the slow car. It's all just part of the same-class heads-up no breakout rule, in Stock eliminator.

455dan · 12-30-2021, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyakr

'73 was a very eventful year for Pontiac. Some good & some bad. To me, the bad was the complete body style change for the A-body. That's all I'll say about that, because some here love the '73 A-body.

The big deal was the release of the SD455 engine. And, there were a few Pontiac racers that immediately got one & put it on the track. One of these guys was John Clegg. He bought one, took it to Indy, & won his D/S class !

I may have already posted this. But it needs to go right here, again.

https://www.facebook.com/NHRA/videos/2196660753953292/

I suppose one of the most famous SD455 Stockers was the Herslow & Morlock "Celluloid Hero" E/SA record holder, which made the cover of SS&DI mag.

Wasn't H-O Racing also into stock class racing with 2? SD-455 powered T/A's for a short time
I believe this was in addition to Craig's 74 SD T/A SS car

reading an old post sdbobs and Craig Hendrickson's response below from PY,

I think Kern Osterstock also may have competed for a short time with a factory SD T/A and also may have ran the 73 T/A he swapped in a 455 SD and ran it in K/SA

sdbob View Post
Fred was from Tallmadge, ohio. He brought the car to Winternationals 74,think it was G/SA at the time Someone from HO helped him get the car to run faster.it was blue.
Now I remember some more about that car (I can't ask Kern because he has passed). Kern was impressed with it at the WinterNationals and because he wanted an SD-455 he made Fred (or sons) an offer that they could not resist. That car never went much faster than at the W'Nats, but Kern had fun with it it. Later, he sold it to who I don't know and bought a 1973 T/A (non SD-455) and put a 455-SD in it. He drove that one on the street. Probably never got beat! (picture taken at the old Irwindale Drag Strip in the mid 1970's).

ponyakr · 11:58 AM

" Wasn't H-O Racing also into stock class racing with 2? SD-455 powered T/A's for a short time
I believe this was in addition to Craig's 74 SD T/A SS car..."

I'm not aware, nor do I have any pics. But, it wouldn't surprise me a bit.

It seems that several of the SD455 guys used 'em in several different applications. That was when the SD455 heads were a LOT cheaper.

Herslow & Morlock, Phil Szupka, Bob Michael, Don Kennedy, John Clegg, Jack Mullins, Glenn Tinsley, Lynn McCarty, & the H-O guys, are some of the names that come to mind, who ran SD455 stuff.

I know an SD455 Stocker ran out of John Clegg's shop. Besides the Herslow & Morlock Stocker, the others I can think of were Super Stocks.

Just looked back thru some of my pics. #5 shows a '74 Bird running E/SA. Has Tony Reiter on the door. I have it listed as Bill Foder. Don't know why. Maybe he was the driver ? Anyhow, don't think a '74 could have run E/SA without SD455 power.

ponyakr · 12-30-2021, 12:17 PM

I have these pics of 2 Birds with H-O on the door.

Don't know if the H-O guys owned or just sponsored the cars.

The black car looks to have big tires. So it was obviously a Super Stocker.

From the side view, I can't tell if the tires on the white Bird are big, or not. So, I suppose it could have been a Stocker ? Assume both were SS cars.

455dan · 12-30-2021, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyakr

I have these pics of 2 Birds with H-O on the door.

Don't know if the H-O guys owned or just sponsored the cars.

The black car looks to have big tires. So it was obviously a Super Stocker.

From the side view, I can't tell if the tires on the white Bird are big, or not. So, I suppose it could have been a Stocker ? Assume both were SS cars.

Have to admit, I was fishing a bit on this,

I own a 1973 4 speed 455 T/A that Kern changed to SD power.

Sure wish I had found this site earlier and regret not reaching out to Kern over the decades. I was really sad to hear he had passed and that had happened years back.

I talked to Kern about the car back in 1979- right after purchasing it ( from the gentleman Kern sold it to} and Kern said early in his owning the car he had run the car in K/SA and that it had run 11.9 IIRC and that it was record holder for a short period before it was beat by another "Very similar" car.

40 plus years has passed and my memory isn't what it once was so hoping i remember the conversation correctly.

I believe It was featured in the June 1976 Car Craft handling article for F body cars called Flat & Fast because everything matches.

a snipet from article

More specifically, the re search resulted when Kern Osterstock decided he had as much power as was feasible for a street-driven (and occasionally raced) 455 Trans Am Super Duty Firebird, but he wanted to get more of it to the ground for sports car handling. Being part owner of a Pontiac high-performance concern, H-O Racing Specialties, made Kern's studies rewarding both to himself and his customers.

By the time I ended up with the car in May of 79 Kern had ported the heads and was running it with a solid roller cam with a fiberglass nose and other mods on the street, so it was no longer K stock auto suitable , and it was switched back to a rock crusher M-22.

ponyakr · 12-31-2021, 09:15 PM

Need some help with an ID.

Found this pic of a Pontiac Ventura, with a div 4 number, 4750.

Seems I remember coming across the name Raymond Simmons, somewhere. I wanna say he lived in Arkansas & had a Pontiac Stocker. So, it MIGHT be his car.

Search here didn't show any results.

Can anybody ID this car/driver ?

sdbob · 01-01-2022, 02:10 AM

I heard rumor back in74 that H O racing bought Fred Davissons 74 Blue SD TA -G/SA after the Winternationals.Never confirmed story,just now remembered it.

ponyakr · 01-03-2022, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyakr

Need some help with an ID.

Found this pic of a Pontiac Ventura, with a div 4 number, 4750.

Seems I remember coming across the name Raymond Simmons, somewhere. I wanna say he lived in Arkansas & had a Pontiac Stocker. So, it MIGHT be his car.

Search here didn't show any results.

Can anybody ID this car/driver ?

A Class Racer member posted an entry list for the '75 SPORTSnationals.

#4750 is listed as Raymond Simmons, from Ark. He is listed driving a '67 Camaro. But, I assume he was driving the Ventura, at the race where his number was on it.

Also noticed that Rock Running is on the list, with his '71 T-37. It's still active, with current owner, Don Turk.

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