[Steve C.]

What Is The Proper Clearance Needed Between The Oil Pickup And Oil Pan?

"You can calculate the clearance by measuring the internal pan depth and measuring the distance from the block's pan rails to pickup bottom. The difference between the two measurements will provide the pickup to pan clearance. Gaskets will add some additional clearance. Here are some recommended pickup to pan clearances: Ford Pans- 5/16-3/8 inch (.312-.375) Chevy Pans- 5/16-3/8 inch (.312-.375) All Others 5/16-3/8 inch (.312-.375). Deep sump pan pickups are submerged deeper into the oil are less sensitive to clearances. Deep sumps may have clearance up to a 1/2 inch."

Source: Canton Racing Products

Curious, any drop in pressure going straight ? Moving along in say second gear with the RPM steady then stab the throttle can you see the oil pressure drop about 20 or so pounds for an instant, then quickly recover ?


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[Giffels]

No sir, no oil issues ever under acceleration. Only way it can starve in straight line is hard braking.

Originally Posted by Steve C.

What Is The Proper Clearance Needed Between The Oil Pickup And Oil Pan?

"You can calculate the clearance by measuring the internal pan depth and measuring the distance from the block's pan rails to pickup bottom. The difference between the two measurements will provide the pickup to pan clearance. Gaskets will add some additional clearance. Here are some recommended pickup to pan clearances: Ford Pans- 5/16-3/8 inch (.312-.375) Chevy Pans- 5/16-3/8 inch (.312-.375) All Others 5/16-3/8 inch (.312-.375). Deep sump pan pickups are submerged deeper into the oil are less sensitive to clearances. Deep sumps may have clearance up to a 1/2 inch."

Source: Canton Racing Products

Curious, any drop in pressure going straight ? Moving along in say second gear with the RPM steady then stab the throttle can you see the oil pressure drop about 20 or so pounds for an instant, then quickly recover ?


.

[PontiacJim1959]

Originally Posted by Giffels

No sir, no oil issues ever under acceleration. Only way it can starve in straight line is hard braking.

Use a stock Pontiac pan with a built in baffle - 1973 and up.

Extend the pan.
Add a baffle to the back of the pan so the oil does not climb up the back wall.
Use a Butler Pro 60PSI blueprinted oil pump that provides more volume.
Use an extended oil pump pick up like the Moroso pickup.
Measure the distance between the bottom of the pick up and pan. 3/8" is ideal.

The pick up will be deep into the extra oil. Baffles should keep the oil where it needs to be. End of problem.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by PontiacJim1959

Use a stock Pontiac pan with a built in baffle - 1973 and up.

In 99 out of 100 Pontiac Enthusiasts who are drivikng their cars on the street what you posted would work great.

In a very early post, Jim, the OP says he is road racing this Pontiac engine and already bought a advertised Road Race pan which is not doing the job for him.

So we are trying to understand why the Canton Road Race oil pan is not doing the job as advertised. Road race guys make right hand and LEFT HAND turns on the race track and sometimes on the street (parking lots with Pylon track markers).

Just bringing you up to speed on the thread. Have a great day my friend.

Tom V.

[Steve C.]

A fwiw, for some interesting observations read thru this entire thread regarding the Butler Pro Pump.....

" I changed my oil pump to the Butler Pro 60 psi pump and been fighting it for 3 days now."

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...utler+Pro+Pump


.

[PontiacJim1959]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

In 99 out of 100 Pontiac Enthusiasts who are drivikng their cars on the street what you posted would work great.

In a very early post, Jim, the OP says he is road racing this Pontiac engine and already bought a advertised Road Race pan which is not doing the job for him.

So we are trying to understand why the Canton Road Race oil pan is not doing the job as advertised. Road race guys make right hand and LEFT HAND turns on the race track and sometimes on the street (parking lots with Pylon track markers).

Just bringing you up to speed on the thread. Have a great day my friend.

Tom V.

Nope, I am up to speed. Picture shows the oil level depth of 6 quarts of oil with the extended pan. Note the marked lines on the tape. Those are the levels of the oil with the stock pan and you can see the difference in the level between the stock 5 quarts and present 6 quart level. Still can add more oil to bring it up to the stock 5 quart level - so at that depth, and the extended oil pick up, I would think the pick up would be covered in left/right turns on a road course with what baffles are shown, and a crank scraper that'll extend from the pan edge to keep oil from riding up the side.

Another photo is of a Mopar pan with added baffle that is a little more coverage to keep oil in the pan.

I am not convinced it is a pan issue since it is a road race pan and should have baffles where needed. The OP also stated he added an extra quart to the already 6 quart pan - so it was overfilled and in most cases can cure the issue.

I have seen YouTube videos for the Accusump used for such type driving, but what they don't show/tell is if the oil pan found on the car being used as a demo has the stock pan or a road racing type pan - my guess is a stock pan which would better demonstrate the need for the Accusump.

What has not been asked is where he picks up his oil pressure. I would tap my line at the oil feed next to the distributor if that has not already been done. I think this might provide a more accurate reading.

Seeing the OP has 60PSI that drops to 30PSI in a right turn, and when he lets up off the gas, it returns to 60PSI, maybe excessive clearance/worn thrust bearing surface as the crank moves forward/backward?

How about installing an AIR BALANCE TUBE between the pan area and a valve cover to help balance air pressure in the pan and allow the oil to easily flow back into the pan? Just a thought.

On the same line of thought, how is the breather/PCV valve set-up?

[Giffels]

Oil pressure is coming from the port next to the distributor.

let me be more clear for the lifting off throttle topic - I was saying this only to reiterate that I was not staying full throttle with dropping oil pressure. The pressure only comes back up once you are out of the corner or slow down. Everything in the motor is about 3,000 miles old, change oil religiously and no signs of any bearing material ever in it or the filter.

Running 2 breathers on the valve covers and a valley pan PCV with a ME Wagner adjustable PCV - this is routed back into the intake. I was considering maybe its an excess crank case pressure issue with the stroker bottom end potentially but nothing else would suggest this (no oil being blown out or smoke). I dont think it could make enough pressure to push the oil away from the pickup or stop it from returning to the pan.

Originally Posted by PontiacJim1959

Nope, I am up to speed. Picture shows the oil level depth of 6 quarts of oil with the extended pan. Note the marked lines on the tape. Those are the levels of the oil with the stock pan and you can see the difference in the level between the stock 5 quarts and present 6 quart level. Still can add more oil to bring it up to the stock 5 quart level - so at that depth, and the extended oil pick up, I would think the pick up would be covered in left/right turns on a road course with what baffles are shown, and a crank scraper that'll extend from the pan edge to keep oil from riding up the side.

Another photo is of a Mopar pan with added baffle that is a little more coverage to keep oil in the pan.

I am not convinced it is a pan issue since it is a road race pan and should have baffles where needed. The OP also stated he added an extra quart to the already 6 quart pan - so it was overfilled and in most cases can cure the issue.

I have seen YouTube videos for the Accusump used for such type driving, but what they don't show/tell is if the oil pan found on the car being used as a demo has the stock pan or a road racing type pan - my guess is a stock pan which would better demonstrate the need for the Accusump.

What has not been asked is where he picks up his oil pressure. I would tap my line at the oil feed next to the distributor if that has not already been done. I think this might provide a more accurate reading.

Seeing the OP has 60PSI that drops to 30PSI in a right turn, and when he lets up off the gas, it returns to 60PSI, maybe excessive clearance/worn thrust bearing surface as the crank moves forward/backward?

How about installing an AIR BALANCE TUBE between the pan area and a valve cover to help balance air pressure in the pan and allow the oil to easily flow back into the pan? Just a thought.

On the same line of thought, how is the breather/PCV valve set-up?

[Giffels]

Small update. Issue is still ever present, Darrin has been incredible to work with and we have tried throwing everything but the kitchen sink at this and still cant get the issue to go away.

Im at a loss here, verified pickup height of 1/8-1/4" off pan.

Can anyone think of any internal issues to the oiling system in the motor that would cause this? My thought is i have to have something going on internally to be uncovering the sump - I know an oil galley plug cannot be missing but could there be a leak or another issue internal somewhere that could cause excess oil in the top end?

At the end of my rope with this issue, about to yank this motor and put something else in at this point...

[HWYSTR455]

I still suggest removing the remote oil filter setup and see if you still have the issues.

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[Giffels]

Is there a setup for the block that will clear long tube headers? I have the remote setup right on the firewall, lines are just barely 10" long so I dont see how it would really cause this issue? those lines should only hold 0.25 quarts and the filter is about 0.75

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I still suggest removing the remote oil filter setup and see if you still have the issues.

.

[Skip Fix]

Originally Posted by PontiacJim1959

Use a stock Pontiac pan with a built in baffle - 1973 and up.

Extend the pan.
Add a baffle to the back of the pan so the oil does not climb up the back wall.
Use a Butler Pro 60PSI blueprinted oil pump that provides more volume.
Use an extended oil pump pick up like the Moroso pickup.
Measure the distance between the bottom of the pick up and pan. 3/8" is ideal.

The pick up will be deep into the extra oil. Baffles should keep the oil where it needs to be. End of problem.

Man that looks hard to snake the pan on during installation!

[PontiacJim1959]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

Man that looks hard to snake the pan on during installation!

LOL, no problem at all with the engine out. The Milodon pick-up is small and I notched the back wall baffle so it goes on quite easily, no fighting.

[PontiacJim1959]

Remove the oil filter completely - do they make a union where you can join the inlet/outlet line together? If so, do a fresh oil change, take if for a drive and do what you normally do when it drops. If it does not drop, then you are zeroing in the problem - something with the remote set-up. If it still drops, then it is not the filter media/remote filter set-up.

I read that a way to test the oil level in the pan for a road race car so that the oil covers the oil pick-up, is to secure the pick-up in the pan (might use a couple strong magnets) and fill the pan with the required oil amount, and tilt the pan to a 45 degree angle, left & right. With the pan tilted at 45 degrees, you should still have oil covering the entire pick-up. If not, then the pan may need to be modified.