[opeliac]

Originally Posted by Scott Roberts

Chase a Proline down the track.. Do you think a Pontiac at the same weight and ci could compete with Ron Rhodes on a 275? Hell he's the second fastest SmallBlock out of BES's shop.. the fastest is a grudge racer with a small block ford called "The Silversurfer".. according to Tony B..

Ron Rhodes' car is the most impressive car in all of drag racing...I'm not talking about it being the baddest of all time...I'm talking about it being a competitive combo...

Look what Langer does with his BES N/A Pontiac...Turn Tony loose with billet parts and an open checkbook and i'd say it would be fast with twins...Would it be Hemi fast? NO, it wouldnt be...But, even you guys run with rules...

But, since you asked about the Pontiac competing with Ron's car under the exact same weight, ci, and tire...I dont think the Hemi would beat Ron either...

[Scott Roberts]

Originally Posted by opeliac

Ron Rhodes' car is the most impressive car in all of drag racing...I'm not talking about it being the baddest of all time...I'm talking about it being a competitive combo...

Look what Langer does with his BES N/A Pontiac...Turn Tony loose with billet parts and an open checkbook and i'd say it would be fast with twins...Would it be Hemi fast? NO, it wouldnt be...But, even you guys run with rules...

But, since you asked about the Pontiac competing with Ron's car under the exact same weight, ci, and tire...I dont think the Hemi would beat Ron either...

Yes, Langer does well but is in that grey area of small block/Big block... I think he's 572ci and competes at a small block weight I believe.. Not bashing the guy... he is impressive with his program and dedication.. just giving u an example...
Tommy's car was max effort I would say... at least 250k invested... probably more...he did ok but you see the choice he made..

[John Langer]

Originally Posted by Scott Roberts

Yes, Langer does well but is in that grey area of small block/Big block... I think he's 572ci and competes at a small block weight I believe.. Not bashing the guy... he is impressive with his program and dedication.. just giving u an example...
Tommy's car was max effort I would say... at least 250k invested... probably more...he did ok but you see the choice he made..

My 577 runs at BB weight minus 175 for being a Pontiac. If someone would want to try to duplicate my motor, it would be $85k+. That doesnt include any R&D. I have been running the same style castings since 2007. It takes more then a ton of hp to win races, you need the total package, trans, gearing, chassis etc. Tommy might have been able to be competitive with his warp motor. I dont know if he was having any chronic parts failures. I think his tuner was a pro-line guy. Its much easier to put a pro-line motor in there and go. They have a hundred customers with the same exact combo. That means they know what converter to put behind the motor, what gearing to have in the trans, what rear gear to run, what tune-up to run etc. If you have a one off combo, it takes years to figure out what it wants. Years equals hundreds of thousands of dollars of parts, trial and error, testing etc. If you want to win now, pro-line is the ay to go...

[Scott Roberts]

Originally Posted by John Langer

My 577 runs at BB weight minus 175 for being a Pontiac. If someone would want to try to duplicate my motor, it would be $85k+. That doesnt include any R&D. I have been running the same style castings since 2007. It takes more then a ton of hp to win races, you need the total package, trans, gearing, chassis etc.

I get...I wasn't trying to put you down. I knew you were in a grey area on weight...just wasn't sure what it was, that why I said "I believe"..
No one doubts the money and dedication you have..
I'm also aware it takes more than hp..

[John Langer]

Originally Posted by Scott Roberts

I get...I wasn't trying to put you down. I knew you were in a grey area on weight...just wasn't sure what it was, that why I said "I believe"..
No one doubts the money and dedication you have..
I'm also aware it takes more than hp..

Didnt think i was being put down, just stating the obvious...

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by opeliac

Ron Rhodes' car is the most impressive car in all of drag racing...I'm not talking about it being the baddest of all time...I'm talking about it being a competitive combo...

Look what Langer does with his BES N/A Pontiac...Turn Tony loose with billet parts and an open checkbook and i'd say it would be fast with twins...Would it be Hemi fast? NO, it wouldnt be...But, even you guys run with rules...

But, since you asked about the Pontiac competing with Ron's car under the exact same weight, ci, and tire...I dont think the Hemi would beat Ron either...

The HP that Ron Rhodes has is only half of it. The other half is the engine tuning and chassis tuning by Ron Rhodes and crew.

I believe if BES was given the money. They could build a Pontiac that at the same ci as Ron Rhodes engine would make the came HP.

Stan

[Scott Roberts]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

The HP that Ron Rhodes has is only half of it. The other half is the engine tuning and chassis tuning by Ron Rhodes and crew.

I believe if BES was given the money. They could build a Pontiac that at the same ci as Ron Rhodes engine would make the came HP.

Stan

Same HP doesn't mean same acceleration rate..

[John Langer]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

The HP that Ron Rhodes has is only half of it. The other half is the engine tuning and chassis tuning by Ron Rhodes and crew.

I believe if BES was given the money. They could build a Pontiac that at the same ci as Ron Rhodes engine would make the came HP.

Stan

Tony has already built Pontiac motors the same CID as Rons that make more power. But not set up for spray. You would never get that pontiac motor in a car and weigh within 200-250 pounds of Rons car, unless it was a tube chassis car. If you did get in a paper weight, it would be so dam nose heavy, good luck getting it to work. My car is pretty light. His car with driver race ready weighs less then mine without a driver...

[Scott Roberts]

Originally Posted by John Langer

Tony has already built Pontiac motors the same CID as Rons that make more power. But not set up for spray. You would never get that pontiac motor in a car and weigh within 200-250 pounds of Rons car, unless it was a tube chassis car. If you did get in a paper weight, it would be so dam nose heavy, good luck getting it to work. My car is pretty light. His car with driver race ready weighs less then mine without a driver...

So ron runs an iron block I take it? Is there a penalty for a lightened block? Not that an IA2 ( 250+lbs) could get down to the sbc weight...around 180lbs or so I think

[John Langer]

Originally Posted by Scott Roberts

So ron runs an iron block I take it? Is there a penalty for a lightened block? Not that an IA2 ( 250+lbs) could get down to the sbc weight...around 180lbs or so I think

Its not just the block, the crank is heavier, rods longer, pistons bigger, heads heavier, push rods longer, intake heavier, balancer heavier etc.

[Scott Roberts]

Originally Posted by John Langer

Tony has already built Pontiac motors the same CID as Rons that make more power. But not set up for spray. You would never get that pontiac motor in a car and weigh within 200-250 pounds of Rons car, unless it was a tube chassis car. If you did get in a paper weight, it would be so dam nose heavy, good luck getting it to work. My car is pretty light. His car with driver race ready weighs less then mine without a driver...

Also, being in the know, do you think that is the limiting factor? Weight? You said, a Pontiac made more power NA then Ron but was it a purpose built engine like Rons? That does come into play... Na vs PA built engine..as I know you are aware..

[John Langer]

Originally Posted by Scott Roberts

Also, being in the know, do you think that is the limiting factor? Weight? You said, a Pontiac made more power NA then Ron but was it a purpose built engine like Rons? That does come into play... Na vs PA built engine..as I know you are aware..

It's not my business to get into the details of Rons stuff. It is relatively easy to make 2 horse per cube with a Pontiac for an NA combination. As an example, Lil Jacks motor made more on nuts then Cagles 582 BBC. Both set up for spray. Cagle has been much faster with the same jet. Some motors have intrinsic advantages over others...

[Scott Roberts]

Originally Posted by John Langer

It's not my business to get into the details of Rons stuff. It is relatively easy to make 2 horse per cube with a Pontiac for an NA combination. As an example, Lil Jacks motor made more on nuts then Cagles 582 BBC. Both set up for spray. Cagle has been much faster with the same jet. Some motors have intrinsic advantages over others...

I get it... so based on your previous post, is Cagle faster just due to weight.... I doubt it. Obviously it's the total package but where does LJ fall short? Is it simply time and development? With 32 kids, I'm sure he doesn't have the time to devote...or the over all engine parameters...the intrinsic advantages as you say

[opeliac]

With billet blocks, heads, and cranks...WHY are they staying with stock bore spacing? Stock bore spacing limits valve, and piston, sizes...Stretch the damn things and lets rock.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by opeliac

With billet blocks, heads, and cranks...WHY are they staying with stock bore spacing? Stock bore spacing limits valve, and piston, sizes...Stretch the damn things and lets rock.

A few things to ponder here.

Anyone that thinks by 2022 that Pontiac wouldn't have changed the architecture of the Stratostreak engine is living under a rock. If the division was still around, that engine would have long been abandoned. Even if corporate engines had never come about, (LS series), that engine was doomed by the corporation for replacement.

Pontiac had already engineered an 427 OHC modular engine, and showed the models of it in 1970 that were in Hot Rod magazine. That design was refined by ford, and made into a real working engine.

IMO, stretching the bore centers (which chevy has already done on their BBC) isn't a mortal sin. But then the OEM based stuff isn't going to fit, so you're faced with a completely new engine configuration.

So if you're going for a new engine, Youman probably thought he would buy something that was purpose designed. He had already spent probably twice the amount on an OEM design from early 1950s and still wasn't very competitive in the classes he chose to compete in. Even twin turbos, with some of the best engineered parts available, still couldn't make him competitive in the higher classes. I believe he spent enough of his own money to figure out that it wasn't going to happen, and IMO, he is about as dedicated as anyone that is reading this. There aren't any OEM designs competing in that class that place in the top 3 consistently.

"A man has to know his limitations" comes to mind.

I still don't think a OEM stretched bore center is going to make it in that class, so if someone made the new parts for a long block configuration, would they ever live long enough to see a return on their investment? You have to have customers to get your money back.

Maybe if, someone had the blueprints for the later OHC design, modular engine, and made one of those in billet they'd be staying at least with a factory design that Pontiac had come up with to satisfy their brand loyalty, and maybe have some customers outside of Pontiac fans. But you'd have a huge expense to shoulder in the development stage to get the design competitive, to then build a customer base. Lots of dark areas that would have to be bridged in order to build a customer base for a completely new engine.

Pontiac Jack has done this on a small scale making the "one-off" OHC head for his 4 cylinder Pontiac based lakester. He has had a few setbacks getting it to a stage where he can race, and not have to return home to refine his design further. Watching his work as it progresses is just the tip of the iceberg for a completely new design V8 race engine, that would be based on the modular V8 from the late 60s, early 70s. Jack had the block to start with, so his design is comes from splitting a existing V8 factory aluminum block into a 4 cylinder configuration, and designing an OHC head from scratch. Still a challenging feat, that not many could pull off.

Just saying, " I wish we had ", doesn't pay the bills for the manufacturer.

[opeliac]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

A few things to ponder here.

Anyone that thinks by 2022 that Pontiac wouldn't have changed the architecture of the Stratostreak engine is living under a rock. If the division was still around, that engine would have long been abandoned. Even if corporate engines had never come about, (LS series), that engine was doomed by the corporation for replacement.

Pontiac had already engineered an 427 OHC modular engine, and showed the models of it in 1970 that were in Hot Rod magazine. That design was refined by ford, and made into a real working engine.

IMO, stretching the bore centers (which chevy has already done on their BBC) isn't a mortal sin. But then the OEM based stuff isn't going to fit, so you're faced with a completely new engine configuration.

So if you're going for a new engine, Youman probably thought he would buy something that was purpose designed. He had already spent probably twice the amount on an OEM design from early 1950s and still wasn't very competitive in the classes he chose to compete in. Even twin turbos, with some of the best engineered parts available, still couldn't make him competitive in the higher classes. I believe he spent enough of his own money to figure out that it wasn't going to happen, and IMO, he is about as dedicated as anyone that is reading this. There aren't any OEM designs competing in that class that place in the top 3 consistently.

"A man has to know his limitations" comes to mind.

I still don't think a OEM stretched bore center is going to make it in that class, so if someone made the new parts for a long block configuration, would they ever live long enough to see a return on their investment? You have to have customers to get your money back.

Maybe if, someone had the blueprints for the later OHC design, modular engine, and made one of those in billet they'd be staying at least with a factory design that Pontiac had come up with to satisfy their brand loyalty, and maybe have some customers outside of Pontiac fans. But you'd have a huge expense to shoulder in the development stage to get the design competitive, to then build a customer base. Lots of dark areas that would have to be bridged in order to build a customer base for a completely new engine.

Pontiac Jack has done this on a small scale making the "one-off" OHC head for his 4 cylinder Pontiac based lakester. He has had a few setbacks getting it to a stage where he can race, and not have to return home to refine his design further. Watching his work as it progresses is just the tip of the iceberg for a completely new design V8 race engine, that would be based on the modular V8 from the late 60s, early 70s. Jack had the block to start with, so his design is comes from splitting a existing V8 factory aluminum block into a 4 cylinder configuration, and designing an OHC head from scratch. Still a challenging feat, that not many could pull off.

Just saying, " I wish we had ", doesn't pay the bills for the manufacturer.

If you are designing a billet part, does it cost more to design it with a bigger bore space? It seems the return on investment would come into play if the finished product provided results...Would it be something that would become mainstream with high volume sales? Absolutely not...

As for how competitive it could be...Well, its not like Tommy's engine was severely under powered...

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by opeliac

If you are designing a billet part, does it cost more to design it with a bigger bore space? It seems the return on investment would come into play if the finished product provided results...Would it be something that would become mainstream with high volume sales? Absolutely not...

As for how competitive it could be...Well, its not like Tommy's engine was severely under powered...

If you're going for a design to keep up with the top engines already existing, why not one up them by an OHC design?

I still don't believe stretching the bore centers is going to make the Stratosteak engine competitive in that class. It's not apples to apples when you're trying to field a race car that is going to be competitive that isn't going to be run only a few times a year, then you have to wait for parts to be made for your one-off engine.

Youman needs something that he cam source parts rapidly for, not just once a year at Norwalk. I believe he wants to run a series, so waiting for billet parts that break, probably weighed into his choice to go with something that he can have parts for within a week off the shelf.

I'm sure he ran into parts availability already for his race car, plus he wasn't in the top finishers anyway.

He didn't abandon the engine, he's just going to use it in his other car.

This is all fantasy anyway, I don't know anyone currently in the Pontiac hobby that has pockets deep enough to do either option, and be competitive in a race series. Am I right?

[Scott Roberts]

Originally Posted by opeliac

If you are designing a billet part, does it cost more to design it with a bigger bore space? It seems the return on investment would come into play if the finished product provided results...Would it be something that would become mainstream with high volume sales? Absolutely not...

As for how competitive it could be...Well, its not like Tommy's engine was severely under powered...

Certainly not severely under powered, it was severely under managed.. it was a new program and wasn't give the time an resources to be fully competitive. It was under powered based on the competition but not "severely"...