[roger1]

Originally Posted by dataway

So I'm guessing the signs of heat damage in the console to my donor console harness was someone staying on the starter for an extended period? Probably far beyond the factory recommended cranking time?

It wasn't horrible damage, just the factory female spades melted into the connection for the neutral switch and some shrinking back of the insulation on both switch end and plug end.

I replaced the female spades with tin plated brass double crimps, after trimming back the wire a bit, covered the crimps with shrink tubing, left the females uncovered to help dissipate any heat, so no longer a "connector" on the switch end, just the separate terminals. Just cleaned up the plug end connectors and used anti-corrosion grease.

I'm one of those people that if the engine doesn't start within about five seconds you stop and find the problem. Preferable about one second

My guess is that the connections were loose, dirty or both and caused them to heat up. Btw, starting in '69 the purple wire doesn't run to the console like it does in yours. The park/neutral switch is on the steering column and the back linkage turns the inner shaft to lock the steering wheel and also controls the P/N switch.
I bought a kit to move it back to the shifter in the console for my '69 only because I've changed the transmission to a 200-4R. The original back linkage still locks the steering wheel but I don't have to worry about if the P/N switch still would have worked since the detents for the gears aren't the same as the Turbo 400.

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by dataway

I recently did some research into the solder vs crimp debate ... jeez, and I thought oil threads were bad in the car groups, these electrical guys are very opinionated

So I usually crimp AND solder critical connections.

Nothing competes with oil threads...

Opinionated? I resemble that even if not electrical... Opinions are for everyone.

Soldering is good and makes electrons happy. You are wise.

Mike

[dataway]

My next car I might wire the whole thing with Wago Lever Nuts, you could reconfigure the whole schematic without any tools I love those things.

A few days ago I temporarily moved the electronics bench upstairs out of the shop, which might become permanent. I don't find the 55 degree shop conducive to quality wiring work so I do what I can up here and then take it down to the shop.

BTW .. the soda can has water in it for the soldering station, I don't drink soda.

[Kenth]

I have found this works mighty fine:

[dataway]

Kenth, so that setup only requires the positive cable to the starter?

[roger1]

Originally Posted by Kenth

I have found this works mighty fine:

That was the popular thing to do back in the day using a Ford solenoid and the approach that I referred to in my prior post. You show a good diagram on how it was hooked up.
It's not necessary if using a mini starter nor will it even work wired that way. On a mini starter you can't use a jumper and must run the purple wire to the solenoid on the starter.
I think it's always better not to run the car's main power source wire down to the starter solenoid. Plus, I think it's much better to use a high amperage fuse holder and fuse (the screw-down type) instead of fusible link. Again, I am just completing all this wiring on my car now and will be posting photos soon in my build thread.

[HoovDaddy]

I worked as a Pontiac tech from '73 through 1985. Popular electrical problems were alternators, starters, back up light sockets in the bumper, 68 GTO tail light sockets, wiper motors, window leaks, trunk leaks, squeeks and rattles, carb rebuilds, tune ups, shhocks, exhaust, power steering leaks. 12 month, 12k mile warranties. Tons of warranty electrical problems. Most cars coming in had less than 50k miles, never saw 100k.
Quite different from todays cars.

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by HoovDaddy

I worked as a Pontiac tech from '73 through 1985. Popular electrical problems were alternators, starters, back up light sockets in the bumper, 68 GTO tail light sockets, wiper motors, window leaks, trunk leaks, squeeks and rattles, carb rebuilds, tune ups, shhocks, exhaust, power steering leaks. 12 month, 12k mile warranties. Tons of warranty electrical problems. Most cars coming in had less than 50k miles, never saw 100k.
Quite different from todays cars.

Thanks for this!

I'm just curious but do you know how the repair data was shared with Pontiac/GM? Did you ever see a list of "frequent" or "top" repair actions, either under warranty or not? Clearly they had what I call a "quality management system" and I'm curious to know how it worked. I've never seen discussion of this on the forum.. but I've never gone looking for it either

For example, I'm sure you got repair bulletins and parts change notices that were based on dealer service data (although some changes were probably trigggered by discovery in factory or engineering tests - "late discovery").

The top of the list may also have guided staffing decisions for your management (ie how many hours for a typical repair to decide how many techs were needed).

And as long as I'm spewing random questions, did service department managers report to the dealership or did they have their own management chain within Pontiac/GM?

[johnta1]

On a mini starter you can't use a jumper and must run the purple wire to the solenoid on the starter.

All the mini-starters I have used is wired like that?
I use a short piece of wire with appropriate fitting on each end and fasten it to the solenoid and to starter post.

[roger1]

Originally Posted by johnta1

All the mini-starters I have used is wired like that?
I use a short piece of wire with appropriate fitting on each end and fasten it to the solenoid and to starter post.

Appears I'm wrong about "All". The RobbMc I bought specifically stated you cannot wire one that way. Still I don't think it would be at all necessary but if someone still wanted to go with a remote relay, you would sure need to check if the particular mini starter you have can be wired that way.

If I were to mount a battery in the trunk, then I would use a remote solenoid next to the battery whether I was using a mini starter or not. It's a good for safety when the positive cable is that long to have it only be hot when the engine is cranking.

[Kenth]

Originally Posted by dataway

Kenth, so that setup only requires the positive cable to the starter?

Yes, and since i have the ramair manifolds i routed it in from the front, , hanging in a couple of clips under the motor mount in a "tar cloth tube" for extra safety.
Also, the positive cable to the starter is hot only at "start".

[HoovDaddy]

Originally Posted by Shiny

Thanks for this!

I'm just curious but do you know how the repair data was shared with Pontiac/GM? Did you ever see a list of "frequent" or "top" repair actions, either under warranty or not? Clearly they had what I call a "quality management system" and I'm curious to know how it worked. I've never seen discussion of this on the forum.. but I've never gone looking for it either

For example, I'm sure you got repair bulletins and parts change notices that were based on dealer service data (although some changes were probably trigggered by discovery in factory or engineering tests - "late discovery").

The top of the list may also have guided staffing decisions for your management (ie how many hours for a typical repair to decide how many techs were needed).

And as long as I'm spewing random questions, did service department managers report to the dealership or did they have their own management chain within Pontiac/GM?

Only warranty repairs were shared with Pontiac Motor Div., that's how the dealer got paid for parts and labor. There were no computers until the late '70s, so all data was input on a teletype machine and sent via phone line to PMD. Customer pay work wasn't kept track of by the dealer or PMD. If a problem occurred soon after the warranty expired, that the customer thought should be covered, or a failure that wasn't covered under warranty, that would be the only time PMD got involved.

I can remember '78 Firebird GM T-top roofs collapsing behind the windshield over railroad tracks. Those claims and the following caught the attention of PMD. Roofs on '78 G bodies rotting out, Transmission coolers on early 70's cars failing. When gasoline started having alcohol added, around 1979, it destroyed accelerator pumps causing a change to Viton. Early speedo hall-effect sensors failed regularly. Serious warranty findings from the dealer level would generate a Service Bulletin.

No list of common repairs, you just remembered it. A walk through the parts room could tell you the popular repairs.

Quality at the dealer level was important, but a short step behind making money. All warranty parts had to be saved for 90 days when a GM rep would approve them for scrap. Some parts PMD was interested in inspecting due to increased warranty claims.

Staffing was determined by work load/reasonable repair time, shop space was also a consideration. There were flat rate books and GM had their own warranty times.

Service managers reported to the dealer owner or general manager. Larger dealers usually had a manager that oversaw Service/Parts/Body Shop. The individual managers reported to that manager.

Around 1979, Michigan required that mechanics be ASE certified which was not welcomed with open arms back then. Then in 1980 cars had the first computer and much training was required. People didn't have home computers yet, nobody knew how to fix these things. Pretty rocky time for a mechanic, a lot to take in.

[Shiny]

HoovDaddy - Thank you for taking the time to share all this. It's interesting for me and you know a lot.

Please forgive the rambling below and sorry to OP and others for the diversion but it's the way I am.

Originally Posted by HoovDaddy

Only warranty repairs were shared with Pontiac Motor Div., that's how the dealer got paid for parts and labor. There were no computers until the late '70s, so all data was input on a teletype machine and sent via phone line to PMD. Customer pay work wasn't kept track of by the dealer or PMD. If a problem occurred soon after the warranty expired, that the customer thought should be covered, or a failure that wasn't covered under warranty, that would be the only time PMD got involved.

I'm kind of surprised they didn't get any feedback from dealer repairs after the warranty period. From a "direct" business cost perspective, warranty costs can kill profit FAST so managing that is obvious, but being "blind" to field issues after the warranty is pretty risky, especially when you introduce new components/technology that might have an early "wear-out" and cause black eyes. I guess the internet makes it a little easier today to find out every car like yours has a failure at 35,000 miles.

I can remember '78 Firebird GM T-top roofs collapsing behind the windshield over railroad tracks. Those claims and the following caught the attention of PMD. Roofs on '78 G bodies rotting out, Transmission coolers on early 70's cars failing. When gasoline started having alcohol added, around 1979, it destroyed accelerator pumps causing a change to Viton. Early speedo hall-effect sensors failed regularly. Serious warranty findings from the dealer level would generate a Service Bulletin.

These are interesting examples of how being "blind" to failures after the warranty period can hurt you. So if there were "epidemic" failures beyond warranty after this, I imagine PMD heard it from more than the dealers!

No list of common repairs, you just remembered it. A walk through the parts room could tell you the popular repairs.

It sounds like the parts department was the "canary" and PMD could figure out pretty fast what parts were being ordered as an indicator of what was failing and when.

Quality at the dealer level was important, but a short step behind making money. All warranty parts had to be saved for 90 days when a GM rep would approve them for scrap. Some parts PMD was interested in inspecting due to increased warranty claims.

The 90 days thing is kind of surprising if the only reason was to "keep the dealers honest". But then again, it may have been their way of assuring a supply of parts to characterize if they got wind of an issue. As to inspecting, failure analysis is a routine part of supply chain management, whether dealing with GM "internal" suppliers or external suppliers. Supplier contracts I was around had quality and reliability targets spelled out, with financial penalties at different defect and/or failure rate thresholds. So if you are going after a supplier for hurting your manufacturing quality or field reliability, you gotta prove it is their fault. Not always simple but always contentious.

Staffing was determined by work load/reasonable repair time, shop space was also a consideration. There were flat rate books and GM had their own warranty times.

I guess I was thinking if there was a big issue like your transmission cooler example, it would require a lot of "unplanned" repairs and having data that predicted this could help flag a need for more techs. But good point about shop space putting a cap on it..

Service managers reported to the dealer owner or general manager. Larger dealers usually had a manager that oversaw Service/Parts/Body Shop. The individual managers reported to that manager.

This makes sense for the dealer but I imagine puts pressure on service/parts/body shops to maximize profit. I'm sure you had your share of that pressure. Customer experience with repair quality was up to the dealer then. Balance!

Around 1979, Michigan required that mechanics be ASE certified which was not welcomed with open arms back then. Then in 1980 cars had the first computer and much training was required. People didn't have home computers yet, nobody knew how to fix these things. Pretty rocky time for a mechanic, a lot to take in.

I'll bet! Especially since you were always under time pressure.

Thanks again for sharing your experience.

Mike

[dataway]

Please continue, I'm loving the information.

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by dataway

Please continue, I'm loving the information.

This forum is a way for me personally to learn from others. I hope that doesn't end. Thanks to all for sharing your experience.

Originally Posted by dataway

Boy when you look over the electrical system in a 68 GTO it's easy to see where about 3 relays would have made the system so much less likely to burn down.

I was just restoring the console harness and wondered about the big thick purple wires to the neutral switch .. yep, it's feeding a huge load from the battery to the neutral switch, to the ignition switch to the solenoid.

I noticed the purple wires had seen too much heat, I assume someone laying on the starter for two minutes overheated them. A relay on the firewall and they could have removed six feet of voltage sucking wire and a couple of high current connections.

Same with the headlights of course. At least they used one for the blower motor ... but then they also feed all that current through a cheesy speed switch on the dash.

I would have much rather had to replace a relay now and then than have critical circuits sending all that juice through a maze of wiring.

Circling back to your original post after following all the replies, yours is the only mention of evidence of "too much heat" in that purple wire. Was it the wire or the connectors?

It was interesting to learn there was no "fast" fuse protecting that wire, but instead a fusible link. I interpret this fusible link as a "slow-acting" fuse. Is this correct? I hope so, because any wire not protected by a fuse seems a fire hazard and would surprise me. This is an interesting design decision itself!

There are comments regarding starter functional failure from heat soak and great info on "why" that happens and how to avoid it.. but the "root cause" was more about a susceptible starter/solenoid design and not about lack of a relay feeding the starter relay (solenoid).

You questioned the original design decision to eliminate a relay between starter switch and solenoid, right?

So....

Maybe HoovDaddy or others with similar experience can comment on how often they had to replace the purple wire, the fusible link, or anything in that circuit because of "heat" damage? Did that purple wire ever start fires?

HoovDaddy's comments suggest the decision decisions were heavily focused on getting past a 12-month/12,000 mile warranty in 1968.

Given the lack of a service bulletin to add a relay suggests GM/PMD saved more money eliminating the relay than it cost them in warranty repairs.

Was it a good decision? I dunno, but the answer is probably different for you now than for PMD in 1968.

When did this starting system design first appear? When did the design change to eliminate mechanically switching the high current to the solenoid?

The "longevity" of this design approach could hint at how it worked out (at least for GM/PMD). How it worked out for you is now known!

Mike

[dataway]

The purple wire on my car only shows signs of heat at the connection points.

I think Roger mentioned that there WAS a service bulletin concerning that wire, not sure if it included a relay .. probably not as it was not seen on the 69.

I guess we would have to define "longevity" since I seriously doubt GM gave a crap about what happened to cars 10 years after they built them.

Probably the only upside to EPA regs on modern cars is that they require so many parts that are considered part of the emissions systems to be warrantied for longer periods. Seven years I think? Which probably drove GM to improve components and wiring that otherwise might have been marginal at that age.

[roger1]

The service bulletin was to add the relay to address the no-start situation due to the heat soak on the starter/solenoid. It was a retired Chevy rep that stated that in a forum I was reading. Don't know if there was one for Pontiac or not but the issue was GM wide since they all used the same starter/solenoid design. It worked because it boosted the voltage to the S post on the solenoid.

[HoovDaddy]

Okay, refresh my memory. I might be wrong, but I think I remember changing the starter field coil from a 2 coil to a 4 coil for heat issues when I was a tech back then.

My first new car was a '71 Z28 and quite often it would not crank. Took it in under warranty several times and they never figured it out. Fortunately, it was a 4 speed, so I could push start as long as a friend was with me. I ended up making a jumper wire to go from the purple wire to the battery so I could start it myself. Never figured out the problem.

[roger1]

Originally Posted by HoovDaddy

Okay, refresh my memory. I might be wrong, but I think I remember changing the starter field coil from a 2 coil to a 4 coil for heat issues when I was a tech back then.

My first new car was a '71 Z28 and quite often it would not crank. Took it in under warranty several times and they never figured it out. Fortunately, it was a 4 speed, so I could push start as long as a friend was with me. I ended up making a jumper wire to go from the purple wire to the battery so I could start it myself. Never figured out the problem.

I've read that from retired mechanics before too. I hadn't heard 2 coil to 4 coil but was that the difference between the starters that used the copper spacer in the starter to solenoid connection and the ones that did not use the spacer? I'm guessing so.
I do know that I still had the heat problem back in the day with my Camaro (with headers) even when I changed to a starter that used the spacer.

[dataway]

I'm still seeing them offered with both long and shorter copper spacers ( Rock Auto) .. is one preferred over the other? I remember they used to designate the difference as one being "heavy duty" and the shorter spacer not. Don't see that in the descriptions now.