[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

He was given the microfiche;
Decades ago.

Jim probably did the bulk of the sorting a while back too.

His son has taken over the business, iirc Jim is no longer involved.

GIVEN????? THAT IS ONE STORY. This is closer to the real story.

Years ago, when Pontiac announced it was closing its doors, a management decision said basically "everything goes into the dumpster".

So everything "went into the dumpster" I was told, but then Jim did a "Dumpster Dive" and took everything he could out of the dumpster and saved it.

I believe there was some legal opinions filed and the legal people said once it went into the dempster it was no longer GM property.

So Jim was able to save a bunch of Pontiac records but GM was not happy.

I assume the word went around GM, no more "dumpster diving", and the other OEMS followed suit.

A guy named Ran**zo, almost lost his job for climbing into a dumpster at MY work, BUT he was retrieving a part that should not have been thrown in the dumpster in the first place. A Security Guard saw him and tried to have him fired. Management said, "He should not have gone in the dumpster but he retrieved a critical parts that should not have been put in the dumpster in the first place." So Management saved his job.

Not sure what GM did to Jim, but either way the film and files were saved for Pontiac Enthusiasts.
If they fired him or cancelled his contract as a contract employee, he still did the Pontiac community a great service.

JMO

Tom V.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

GIVEN????? THAT IS ONE STORY. This is closer to the real story.

Years ago, when Pontiac announced it was closing its doors, a management decision said basically "everything goes into the dumpster".

So everything "went into the dumpster" I was told, but then Jim did a "Dumpster Dive" and took everything he could out of the dumpster and saved it.

I believe there was some legal opinions filed and the legal people said once it went into the dempster it was no longer GM property.

So Jim was able to save a bunch of Pontiac records but GM was not happy.

This is correct.

Originally Posted by thepontiacman

From what I understand, GM gets a portion of the money each time a phs report is produced.

I don't know about that - unless it is the typical trademark/registration fee arrangement for using the Pontiac name or logo(s).

GM has no claim to the records - as a result of the lawsuit Tom mentioned.

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

He was given the microfiche;
Decades ago.

Jim probably did the bulk of the sorting a while back too.

His son has taken over the business, iirc Jim is no longer involved.

I don't know that much sorting has been done, or can been done.

I have some pictures of the PHS offices and file cabinets and spent some time looking just now but could not come up with them quickly.

They are the old metal pull out type with rows and rows of microfiche. The also are filed by Invoice number, not by VIN, since the billing history cars were originally a financial document (not an engineering document, nor were they saved as a potential boon to future automotive historians).

Picture the basement of an old savings and loan, where the vault is crammed full of stuff and you have to turn sideways to get between the cabinets.

Something like that.

That's what makes the comprehensive list of '62/'63 Super Duty cars even more incredible. Fred Simmonds went through tens of thousands of individual records, one at a time, before/after work and during his lunch hour - for months - in order to create that list by hand.

K

Originally Posted by 68gtoMN

UPDATE: I just had a great conversation with Jim Mattison regarding one of my cars that led to a discussion about PHS. I really enjoyed the chat and Jim was very forthcoming about how PHS has evolved, the challenges faced by this business and how his passion for the hobby and personal sacrifice have kept it alive. Jim also provided additional information about how a given car's records are kept/researched and it shed light onto the subject (continued questions) of why can't certain searches be made easier - from an overall research perspective. Here's what I learned using one of my cars as an example:

I have a 68 GTO with a VIN indicating it to be the 110th V8 car produced in Pontiac for the 68 model year (august 9, 1967 build). I decided to inquire about how many cars preceding it might have been GTOs, if produced on the first day, other statistics...you know, just in case Jim had some insight. While potentially feasible to review all cars preceding this one to make such a determination (due to low production number), he would have to look up each VIN individually and, to find them, would need to look at invoice date.

If I understand it correctly, VINs are not locatged on the Microfiche in sequential order and each car would need to be identified by performing, essentially, a standard PHS review to determine this information. It is possible that the preceding 10 cars could have been GTOs or that none of the prior 50 were GTOs - you can't know until you look at each record individually. This is both time-consuming and expensive.

The machines Jim uses to review the microfiche are expensive and not manufactured any longer, as Eric states. Office space, copying, mailing, employee expense, etc all add up. Again, details of this are for Jim alone to divulge. HOWEVER, I steadfastly state that the cost for any PHS lookup, as charged by Jim, is a bargain in this world of collector cars. Jim continues because he believes in the cause. He does not need this business, but he loves the hobby and has fought GM to keep it alive for all of us. Perhaps I will investigate further the effort to create such a database for the business.

Anyone questioning the value of knowing the provenance of their car should have no reservations about utilizing PHS. I've seen Jim at GTOAA events for years and have spoken to him on several occasions.

Please do not hesitate to get your PHS paperwork. Support our hobby. Support those who make it possible.

[Keith Seymore]

Some notes from when we had this same discussion, nearly 10 years ago:

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ht=pre-history

and over 10 years ago:

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ht=pre-history

The threshold that flipped the switch at that time was $65.

K

[mgarblik]

Possibly as Jim has stepped down, the current folks operating the service are testing the waters to see at what point the number of inquiry's really drop off. Some people would pay thousands to have a PHS for a very valuable Pontiac. Most of us feel the $100.00 or so they currently charge is just about the go, no go point for the E-mail. Probably a smart business move to find that breaking point and then back off $5.00. Honestly, they can charge as much as they want . Where else are you going to get the info?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Picture the basement of an old savings and loan, where the vault is crammed full of stuff and you have to turn sideways to get between the cabinets.

Something like that.

I guess it's not quite that bad -

This was when the office was located at "Shows and Shoots" in Madison Heights Michigan. It has moved since then.

K

[A Schab]

The older PHS packet included all of the engineering specs and also had many part numbers. It answered many questions that I had. The last one I got was the e-mail type and the engineering docs weren’t part of the package.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

GIVEN????? THAT IS ONE STORY. This is closer to the real story.

Years ago, when Pontiac announced it was closing its doors, a management decision said basically "everything goes into the dumpster".

So everything "went into the dumpster" I was told, but then Jim did a "Dumpster Dive" and took everything he could out of the dumpster and saved it.

I believe there was some legal opinions filed and the legal people said once it went into the dempster it was no longer GM property.

So Jim was able to save a bunch of Pontiac records but GM was not happy.

I assume the word went around GM, no more "dumpster diving", and the other OEMS followed suit.

A guy named Ran**zo, almost lost his job for climbing into a dumpster at MY work, BUT he was retrieving a part that should not have been thrown in the dumpster in the first place. A Security Guard saw him and tried to have him fired. Management said, "He should not have gone in the dumpster but he retrieved a critical parts that should not have been put in the dumpster in the first place." So Management saved his job. .....Tom V.

Reminds me of a Lengendary tale from GE-Astro East Windsor, circa 1994 the spacraft team was missing a million dollar MUX filter bank (silver-plate caliapy of large, thin metal filters of precise qualities) for a GEO satelite in rapid build. Well, a freegan dumpster-diver employee happen to find the MUX tossed by ????, in this one of all the dumpster diving he did. The MUX would be an above-typical find but within his rhelm of possibilities. About a month since missing a Facility PA announcement went out asking to scour the facility for the lost MUX but known to be received. Fella chimed in that he had it, etc and he became a rather heroic fella in the facility. MUX was blessed with holy water (IP2 and vacuum bake), performance measured and blessed by QC for intended use. Wolud have been hauled off otherwise.