[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

So to throw out how easy just a little force of bind can tweak things badly. I was checking V-P on a cam swap on my RAIV 400.HS rockers at the time HO Racing/Mellings 11/32 RAIV pushrods. So to close up V_P a little more I tightened the rocker down more than zero lash. Turned it over BY HAND. the HS rocker got in a mild bind on rocker stud hex. Bent the pushrod just turning it over by hand!

Went to 3/8 pushrods after that ! As well as ARP studs vs the rougher hex from HO that were BBC ones. Smoother narrower Norris SS rocker also.

I think somewhere over the years I posted pics of that issue, and it was with the 'short' polys for low covers.


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[Skip Fix]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I think somewhere over the years I posted pics of that issue, and it was with the 'short' polys for low covers.


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I did it on purpose to see if I had another 0.050 V-P! Live and learn!

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

I did it on purpose to see if I had another 0.050 V-P! Live and learn!

I remember now, it was on VA68goat's engine, normally adjusted, the poly hex area contacted the rocker body. In his engine diags thread, a pic was posted of the witness mark.


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[Va68goat]

[QUOTE=HWYSTR455;6368434]I remember now, it was on VA68goat's engine, normally adjusted, the poly hex area contacted the rocker body. In his engine diags thread, a pic was posted of the witness mark.


I think the suspected "witness mark" was actually a wrench mark on the scorpion rockers I had at the time. I think Paul ruled that out early on. Remember it was the collapsed piston skirt that happened when the pickup tube fell off on the dyno. I still have pictures of the rockers on my other laptop. The rockers never touched the tapped the valve cover.

[HWYSTR455]

[QUOTE=Va68goat;6368471]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I remember now, it was on VA68goat's engine, normally adjusted, the poly hex area contacted the rocker body. In his engine diags thread, a pic was posted of the witness mark.


I think the suspected "witness mark" was actually a wrench mark on the scorpion rockers I had at the time. I think Paul ruled that out early on. Remember it was the collapsed piston skirt that happened when the pickup tube fell off on the dyno. I still have pictures of the rockers on my other laptop. The rockers never touched the tapped the valve cover.

Go back and look at the pics, the hex on the polys were contacting the rockers, I remember moving them around and watched them contact, think it might even be on your thread. Understand it wasn't the core issue, but it was happening.

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[Va68goat]

[QUOTE=HWYSTR455;6368491]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

Go back and look at the pics, the hex on the polys were contacting the rockers, I remember moving them around and watched them contact, think it might even be on your thread. Understand it wasn't the core issue, but it was happening.

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I went back and found the pictures. The guys that saw this in person and in photos thought this was a wrench mark of some sort and not a clearance issue. I doubt Paul would have missed this during assembly.

[JSchmitz]

[QUOTE=Va68goat;6368629]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I went back and found the pictures. The guys that saw this in person and in photos thought this was a wrench mark of some sort and not a clearance issue. I doubt Paul would have missed this during assembly.

I don't disagree that the damage could be a wrench kiss. But the setscrew sticking out of the rocker arm nut looks like short pushrods to me. Or the trunnion was upside down. Either way, something was not right there.

[Dragncar]

[QUOTE=Va68goat;6368629]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I went back and found the pictures. The guys that saw this in person and in photos thought this was a wrench mark of some sort and not a clearance issue. I doubt Paul would have missed this during assembly.

If those are die cast Crane roller rockers I would not use them on a engine I cared about.

[64speed]

I will take pictures when I have better light in a day or so. I like the technical banter back and forth and I love the speculation but as the driver when it happened I feel uniquely able to weigh in. This is EXACTLY what happened. I have been chasing the infamous “scratch” noise in my trans for about 6 weeks. I added a little travel to the clutch and it felt good in the driveway so I went a mile down the road to a church. Turn around in their parking lot and pulled out onto HWY 24. No cars around so while in first I nailed it. First to second shift was great so I went to 2-3. I missed it totally and it revved to the damn moon. I mean you wouldn’t believe how fast. I didn’t immediately cut it off for 2 reasons, one I was stunned and two I had same as always oil pressure. I was about 5-600 yards from the house so I put it in 1st and headed on. When I got a little speed up I coasted the rest of the way to the driveway. When I stopped I lost pressure and my engine RPM increased drastically so I shut it off. I checked under the hood and pulled the valve cover on the passenger side and the pushrods were gone. Wayne Sless is a master builder and the crew chief for The Boogeyman gasser. He built my and Caster1 engine to almost the same spec but used different brand rockers but still BBC. Wayne has been using BBC rockers in his higher HP Pontiacs for years to no ill effect. I will submit more pictures when able.

[64speed]

Valve tip and intact rocker

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by 64speed

Valve tip and intact rocker

HOLY CRAP! Half the tip of the valve is worn away, and the retainer has all kinds of witness marks! I bet the tip of the roller fell off the edge of the valve tip and hung up.

Pull a rocker that didn't let go and take the same pics, as well as the underside of the rocker, bet you will see the same thing.


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[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

HOLY CRAP! Half the tip of the valve is worn away, and the retainer has all kinds of witness marks! I bet the tip of the roller fell off the edge of the valve tip and hung up.

Pull a rocker that didn't let go and take the same pics, as well as the underside of the rocker, bet you will see the same thing.


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That's how I see it too. Seriously side-loaded on contact. Would love to see the roller and underside of the rocker as I suspect the end of the trunnion slot is going to mangled from overtravel binding due to the geometry issue. Also, marks on the pushrods below the normal guide plate scuffing would indicate pushrods contacting the slots cast in the heads. This all could have started the ball rolling with the lifter getting displaced. The fact that both lifter bores broke says the OP "won the lifter lottery" and had both lifter wheels fail simultaneously, wedging both lifter into the cam.

To the OP, since you're convinced the builder is not guilty of any oversight, you should pull that motor out, disassemble and inspect. Hopefully you have a reusable crank, rods and pistons. I would seriously reconsider an HFT cam. Your intent was to build a car that is fast and reliable that can be driven confidently on a regular basis. If you run a high ZDDP content oil and use the additive, I don't see the downside. Were I in your shoes, I wouldn't go back to hydraulic roller and would also put Pontiac style rocker arms with RAIV spec pushrods on it.

There is a guy in the parts section selling a Comp AH10 HFT with Comp Magnum lifters that says it has 7-10 runs on it and it's cheap. That is a very strong cam for a 455. If he kept the lifters in order, you would have the benefit of a cam and lifters that have been broken in without failure and save a bundle toward fixing what you have. It will make all the right noises and be fast as stink for a lot less money.

[PAUL K]

Valve float causes valvetrain separation. The cam has approximately 58 chances a second to knock a wheel of the bottom of a lifter when it's floating... My guess is the the valves floated and knocked the wheels off the bottom of some lifters. It takes a lot of effort to reliably spin a HR set up to 7,000 rpm or more. I can tell from the pictures this valvetrain is not designed to turn anywhere near that number.

Not sure why several folks seem hung up on the use of BBC rocker arms. One of our own members here has been successful using BBC rockers on his build for several years. If you start inquiring you will find most aftermarket rocker arms are based off a Chevy or Ford design and labeled Pontiac. A rocker arm has no idea what brand engine it is designed for.

The builder has already "cowboy'd up" and offered to repair the engine for the cost of parts before he even saw the issue. I'm betting he helps the OP a lot more than he should considering the situation.

Carry on!

[Gach]

I don’t doubt your confidence in Wayne ability for one minute. I see the speculation about valve train, after looking at push rod in the picture. Also don’t think over reving it as The cause of the problem. Or because BBC rocker arms were used. I went through this with my brother all though damage wasn’t as severe. Same exact lifters. I didn’t put his motor together someone else did. Again I could be wrong, but I’ve seen to many of these hydraulic roller lifters failure.

[64speed]

Oh I think the lunati lifters are for sure the cause and will not be using them.

[64speed]

Are the main caps worth anything?

[Gach]

Main caps ? Crank main caps.