[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Franked

....I could possibly make my own plate, or my own under-over spider, but all these solutions would take ME so much labor, It would be easier, and cheaper for me to just buy a 700$ set of johnson's or Morels or something....
Frank

Exactly.

Many are using the Johnson's/Morels successfully, take the time to do proper prep, R&R, and your' chances are very good it will be successful.

Or just go solid roller.


.

[Formulajones]

Paul C just told me Johnson has another batch of hydraulic rollers in stock for Pontiac. He orders directly from Johnson. However they aren't $700 anymore. He told me the price has jumped to $1100 if I remember correctly. This was just a few weeks ago. Like everything else, prices are going up.

I ordered a set from him for a Chevrolet he's doing machine work on for me. I don't much care about the cost, just getting a good lifter straight from the manufacture means more to me than saving some dollars. I won't buy the cheaper stuff found on the internet that "claim" Johnson as a lot of that stuff has been found to be reboxed garbage.

[Franked]

Well, I got my heads a few weeks ago, they are KAUFFMAN D-ports, not Edelbrock D-ports, not sure why I thought that, must have been confused during the conversation, when ordering. I have them at my machine shop, so my machinist guy can bash on them, he is super picky, and builds a lot of high RPM racing stuff that wins a LOT, so I can listen to his bitching. He keeps telling me I don't want over 9.25 to 1, the stroker kit/head combo is designed for 10-1 or 10.3 to 1, Kauffman didn't have larger than 85cc chambered heads, so we may be putting thick gaskets, and or leaving the deck height as high as we can.
My Machinist guy says with CA's piss gas (max 91 octane) I really don't want over 9.25-1, or I will have to mix in race gas, and/or have no timing advance.
Any thoughts on this? the gas here does suck for high compression.
Frank

[1969GPSJ]

Franked, I could be wrong, but IMO, and strongly suggested by current production engines and typical, recent hot rod builds of aluminum head engines, your machinist is in left field, crap gas or not. An engine built with aluminum head is significantly more tolerant of poor octane fuel than an engine with iron heads, even without regard to the dynamic compression influence via camshaft timing. The much higher heat loss rate associated with the aluminum heads significantly reduces the chances for detonation. Most non-turbo V8 builds now with aluminum heads are comfortably running compression ratios at (or above) 10.5:1 on 89-91 octane fuel - as long as the fuel/air mixture is not really messed up. I would seek out the direct advice from either the folks at Butler, Kauffman or Don at DCI. motorsports. For a small example, my wife's mini-van has 11.3:1 compression and is comfortable with 89 octane fuel, and makes over 280 hp (stock) with only 3.6 liters (non mini-van versions are rated at 310 HP). Granted it was designed with variable valve timing, 4 valves per cylinder, electronically controlled fuel injection and ignition, and a modern head design. The 2 liter Turbo Direct Injected 4 cylinder in my daughters car makes 200 (stock) hp with 10.5:1 compression (but requires 91 octane fuel). The aluminum Kauffman D port heads are said to have an excellent chamber configuration, that is highly detonation resistant, and that combined with being aluminum makes running 105:1 compression roughly the iron-head equivalent of 8.5:1 (I'm sure that the folks at Kauffman can give you a better number than that).

[hgerhardt]

.......recent hot rod builds of aluminum head engines, your machinist is in left field, crap gas or not. An engine built with aluminum head is significantly more tolerant of poor octane fuel than an engine with iron heads, even without regard to the dynamic compression influence via camshaft timing. .....

Yup, I learned that in 2001 or so. I had 87cc E-heads on a 428 with a 248/254@ .050, 114 solid roller, and that setup ran best with 87 octane fuel, and slowed down with 91. From that experience, I got a set of 72cc E-heads which brought static CR to 11.4:1 which works great with 91 octane.

Another interesting thing is, this engine now runs best with 31 deg ignition timing, where with the 87cc heads, I needed 36 deg.

[Franked]

Thanks for all the response, I feel it can handle 10-1, this guy builds some badass stuff though, so I don't really want to argue with him.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by Franked

Thanks for all the response, I feel it can handle 10-1, this guy builds some badass stuff though, so I don't really want to argue with him.

Not going to get many answers when the question is lost 19 pages deep in a thread.

Your compression should be matched up with the rest of your parts. The compression increase from aluminum heads varies, and not every case is the same. Small cam, manifolds and stock OTB parts (like a 260 cfm d ports KRE) with highway gears, you may only want 9.2 compression. Big cam, headers, 325 cfm ported KRE d port, single plane, deep gears…you may want 11:1.

My Pontiac 461 is well over 11:1 compression on 91 octane. It is a street engine, runs full timing, and has ported iron heads.

[1969GPSJ]

Franked, for what it's worth, I would hate to see you end up unhappy with your build, but these are just educated opinions, experiences and keyboard warrior stuff on the forum - maybe we are right, maybe we are wrong.

First question I would wonder about is the badass stuff he builds Pontiac? If so, that is a good start, but not essential - but if not, they really must listen to you about the nuances of building a pontiac engine.

Then, if he has built a number of successful Pontiacs has he built a number of aluminum headed Ponchos? Ultimately, what is his specialty? Not everybody is a "jack of all trades" "I can build anything and have it run well" builder like Smoky Yunick was (and others like him).

I would still highly recommend that you talk to Kauffman directly about the compression tolerance of their d port heads, and their thoughts on the proposed combination.
They have built record winning engines. They have hundreds of hours of dyno time with those specific heads and a variety of builds. I guarantee that no other builder has done that with Kauffman D port heads.

After talking with Kauffman, then I would suggest you sit down and have a discussion with your engine builder.

If you feel that you have to walk on eggshells to avoid pissing off your builder and your builder is a "my way or the highway kind of guy" and doesn't want to listen to your inquiries and suggestions and is stuck on low compression (and anything under 10.5:1 would be considered low) with aluminum heads, I would suggest that you may want to seek another engine builder. If a builder behaves that way, that level of arrogance is not a sign of confidence, it is the sign of bully focused on taking your hard earned money and not really caring what product they deliver to the customer.
You are spending a lot of money on the engine build to have the combination end up not working well.

I look at engine builders in kind of the same way I look at physicians/surgeons (and I used to work with a lot of those, as well as engine builders - the art of medicine is somewhat similar to the art of mechanical "stuff" and engine building - just the body is a very complex biological machine). I come to them (both) as knowledgeable about what I want to accomplish as reasonably possible, so that I know and what I want to do is likely to work out well.
I observe if they are listening to me, and then listen to their suggestions. If they are arrogant, and don't at listen to what I am trying to discuss, and do not calmly and rationally lay out their approach and why it is better than what I was thinking I wanted to do, then I will respectfully thank them for their time and find another option. Good luck with your build! I look forward to hearing about a successful project.

[Stan65]

Misticmissle,

I want to “make” a set of Pontiac specific dog bones. Able to accept the round part of the lifter coming out of the bore further while still capturing the flats. Also made for the correct bore spacing to stop the side to side movement of the bone like the fords do.

I already have the “ford” parts.

Thanks,
Stan

[Formulajones]

I've been pushing the 91 pump gas for years here in Arizona, same junk California has. I'm running an 11:1 engine with iron heads fine on it, it likes 36 degrees of timing where it made best power, my bird is 10.13:1 with it's factory iron heads fine on it with best power at 34 degrees, both of these cars are daily driven.
We actually have aluminum headed cars that are a pinch more conservative on compression which is the opposite of what you would expect. One being 10.2:1 that runs with 38 degrees of timing and another with 10.84:1 that likes 34 degrees of timing. Got a couple more with iron heads that have over 10:1 compression and currently building another aluminum headed engine that should end up with compression somewhere in the mid 10's.

Everything runs on the 91 cat pee we have available.

[Franked]

I got my engine and heads back, not working on the car now, been too busy with other projects, I am going to run it 10-1 or 10.2 -1 depending on the gasket I order from Summit (Cometic). My machine shop guy did about 400$ of work on the heads. He didn't like the seat to valve face alignment, or the difference in height between the intake and exhaust valves,(like the exhaust seats were sunk into the head more than the intakes), and the surface had a little ridge right down the middle of the head where they (Kauffman) made 2 passes, it wasn't much, but these guys really don't like stuff that isn't just about perfect. They CCed the heads, and now they are 84.5CCs, no longer 85.
They also re-balanced the rotating assembly, honed the cylinders, which were a little tight down low. Decked the block, line honed, installed cam bearings, got some rust out of the water jackets, removed a broken easy out/stud in the water pump area, had to heli-coil that. They also gapped the rings, etc.
It's ready for me to start putting it together, but I don't have the time now for a while, I still need the roller rockers, head bolts, and head gaskets, then I can see if I am going to get the later model roller lifter setup to work. It's not about the cost, I want the factory reliability of a newer roller engine, and less weight for the lifters. I will update, but it will probably be over a month before I get anything done.
Frank

[Franked]

Hi everyone, I was working on this and had 2 issues, I had purchased 4 of those lifters(which were hard to find) and had the ford dogbones lifting up 20-30 thousandths when the lifter rode to the top of the lobe, (the round part of the lifter was hitting the flats on the bone) I was looking at welding something that was .050 to the dogbones to raise then, but never actually tried.
The other issue I had was the bottom of the lifter where the roller wheel is was a solid cylinder, and my cam lobe hit that part and actually lifted the lifter wheel off the lobe, I was considering just grinding a little off that edge of the lifters, (maybe .030 to .040)but had concerns with getting any shavings out of the lifter afterwords, I finally(2 months ago) just ordered Gaterman lifters which 2 different local machine shops recommended.
I now have howards 1.65 roller rockers coming through Summit Racing. Then I can put this thing together and check for pushrod size.
I still have to completely build the short block, including pistons to rods, It may be a while.....
Frank

[Stan65]

Ha ha. Thanks guys!

Now anyone have any of the specs I need? Will be buying some parts to reverse engineer otherwise.

Thanks,
Stan

[Stan65]

Singleton is correct, most cams have the top of the lobe (max lift) the same height from the cam center line. This is roughly .010” less then the journal diameter. This means no matter what lift cam you have, all lifters will be at the same height at full lift. The lifters drop lower in the bore as the base circle is decreased. The lift is achieved by reducing the base circle. The issue is when the oil band drops out of the bottom of the bore while on the base circle. This is where my comment of careful measurements will be required comes from.

This is just a pet project for myself. The availability of the HT2148 lifter seems to be dwindling. The “replacements” have the oil feed hole in the wrong location and I don’t think they make the original style any longer.

The cam I’m using has .344” lobe lift on both intake and exhaust.

[Stan65]

Jay S,

I may have to get one to check out….

Unfortunately I can’t find any in stock.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Franked

Well, I got my heads a few weeks ago, they are KAUFFMAN D-ports, not Edelbrock D-ports, not sure why I thought that, must have been confused during the conversation, when ordering. I have them at my machine shop, so my machinist guy can bash on them, he is super picky, and builds a lot of high RPM racing stuff that wins a LOT, so I can listen to his bitching. He keeps telling me I don't want over 9.25 to 1, the stroker kit/head combo is designed for 10-1 or 10.3 to 1, Kauffman didn't have larger than 85cc chambered heads, so we may be putting thick gaskets, and or leaving the deck height as high as we can.
My Machinist guy says with CA's piss gas (max 91 octane) I really don't want over 9.25-1, or I will have to mix in race gas, and/or have no timing advance.
Any thoughts on this? the gas here does suck for high compression.
Frank

Don,t put the thick head gaskets on. 9.25 is a great number, for iron heads.
You can run 2 full points more CR with aluminum heads.
Trust me, you want over 10-1 CR with aluminum heads or you are selling your engine power short.
You could run 87 octane with 10-1 in a lot of cases.

[Franked]

Thank you for the response Paul. I like the Idea of a factory roller lifter, especially if it's lighter. I am wondering what happened to all these guys who had something they made, did anything ever get produced, so Joe public(as in , ME) could buy them? I may try milling the flats lower on some lifters, I bought a 4 pack of the sealed power HT2148s on ebay, they haven't arrived yet, and I took my block and stroker assembly to the machine shop so my guy can tell me how I screwed up, and charge me to make it better, so I can't test right away.
I will post what I decide to try, I am also looking forward to seeing what length custom pushrods I need, I don't have the heads yet, so that is a wait item too.
All this is going into a 1964 Lemans, like my first car, but not the same car, with a T-56 Magnum Transmission, and a 9 inch housing made for these cars. Hopefully I won't be breaking parts!!
Frank