[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Yes, the pistons were designed with a wrist pin offset and placed in the direction they were to quit the engine on cold start up. In the cases I have seen reversing the pistons at build time did no damage, it just made the engine run a little noisier. Remember almost all aftermarket pistons have no offset. Stan

Mikes reply:
That is good to know also, thank you folks for all this spectacular input, makes for a more thorough investigation/decision on my part, there is no right or wrong way, there is only my way, at the end.

P.S. The best thing to do is knuckle down and pull the Pistons, hone each Cylinder, then install new Bearings and Rings and never look back. Still on the Fence. I can tell you this, we are performing the Pontiac mod., as we speak, the holes in the Block are Taped and we are going out to find the 1/4" Brass/copper Plugs to fill them now.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Mikes reply:
That is good to know also, thank you folks for all this spectacular input, makes for a more thorough investigation/decision on my part, there is no right or wrong way, there is only my way, at the end.

P.S. The best thing to do is knuckle down and pull the Pistons, hone each Cylinder, then install new Bearings and Rings and never look back. Still on the Fence. I can tell you this, we are performing the Pontiac mod., as we speak, the holes in the Block are Taped and we are going out to find the 1/4" Brass/copper Plugs to fill them now.

Mikes Reply:

It turns out that the Block cooling holes were different sizes, so we opted to drill all three, in each Head, to the largest size 3/8" and then taped them /threaded. We found Ace was going out of business in Pompano Beach Fla., they had the 3/8" plugs in Stainless-steel, we used lock-tite to seal the threads and sent them lower than the Block. We elected to use good metal drills that I had used on the I-beam Boat trailer turned into a flatbed trailer. Ranging in 3 different sizes small, medium and say 1/4" ones, then we turned to my (round black) full kit, for metal only, for the final 3/8" cut.

We then moved on to the 421 ci mod. , that is drilling the holes that are in the gasket on the 421 but not used on the 428, except in this instance. These holes are between the center exhaust Valves, my machinist that is remanufacturing the heads concurs that these holes do in fact meet in the Heads water jacket, but he did not drill them for me , so I will drill them myself.

The Heads are not yet completed, but we keep on painting the Engine and compartment. We decided to pull the Fan shroud, so we can read the degree wheel better and paint the Radiator and forward Bulkhead area and then to the rear with a punch-out paint job. The degree wheel reads 1-1/2 degree, Advanced. I think that Butler had that added in because the Intake was 112 c/l and the Exhaust was 115 c/l thus: 115-112 = 3 divided by 2 = 1-1/2 degrees c/l built into this Melling "041" Cam, sold through Butler Performance Brothers.

So, does that mean that the Cam position is correctly orientated in this motor, with the new advanced type Timing chain and Gear? We performed the degree wheel like this , with the Heads removed we installed the dial indicator over the high portion of the Piston top. We determined the top dead center as the piston came up to its highest point. The number one Piston and the Hydraulic Lifters are on the Base circle so, the Valves are closed on the compression stroke. We have Initial TDC. Attached wire hanger and pointed it over the Degree wheel zero mark.

Turned the motor clockwise, the direction it turns in naturally, and 360 degrees later where at zero again, no slop in that direction. Now we turn CCW for 360 degrees and we end up on 1-1/2 degree advanced at the Crankshaft. Tell me if I am thinking correctly, the Cam is now advanced by 1-1/2 degrees Advanced and if I plan on adding more Advance, I could add say four degrees at the Crank and that would give me two up at the Cam plus the 1-1/2 = 3-1/2 total. So, I was told that I am at 113-1/2 C/L from the Melling factory by Butler, so, 113 -1/2 - 3-1/2 = 110. Now if I move the Timing at the Crank another two degrees advanced that would give me plus one at the Cam for (=) total of 109 that is my target advance, what do you think?

The last thing I would like to say is that what if the person that built this Motor actually Blue printed and balanced the Crank shaft and Pistons for race reasons, I know that my father raced and he said he took his Engines for blue printing and balancing on the two Corvettes with 427 ci mills. If I screw around with moving the Pistons around on the Crank, I might just be interfering with perfection? Your thought on this new reasoning please. confused....

[lust4speed]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Mikes Reply:...We performed the degree wheel like this , with the Heads removed we installed the dial indicator over the high portion of the Piston top. We determined the top dead center as the piston came up to its highest point. The number one Piston and the Hydraulic Lifters are on the Base circle so, the Valves are closed on the compression stroke. We have Initial TDC. Attached wire hanger and pointed it over the Degree wheel zero mark.

Turned the motor clockwise, the direction it turns in naturally, and 360 degrees later where at zero again, no slop in that direction. Now we turn CCW for 360 degrees and we end up on 1-1/2 degree advanced at the Crankshaft....

All you confirmed is you have a respectable 1-1/2° slop in your timing chain - nothing more.

Did you arrive at TDC by taking measurements at .050" before and after TDC adjusting your wheel to arrive at true TDC? After you establish true TDC then you need to find the ICL by the same .050" before and after ICL and record the measurements. Then you can finally figure out whether your cam is advanced and by how much.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

All you confirmed is you have a respectable 1-1/2° slop in your timing chain - nothing more.

Did you arrive at TDC by taking measurements at .050" before and after TDC adjusting your wheel to arrive at true TDC? After you establish true TDC then you need to find the ICL by the same .050" before and after ICL and record the measurements. Then you can finally figure out whether your cam is advanced and by how much.

It is a good thing that the degree wheel is still attached to the Crank. I will inform my roommate, who did the test wrong, how to do it correctly, hopefully, we can get it right from your method, thank you for your support.

[johnta1]

Here's a link to How To Degree Cam


You will need a dial indicator and the degree wheel at a minimum.
What you have done is basically finding the TDC.
Next would be finding the cam open/close specs and where they are at on the degree wheel.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Here's a link to How to Degree Cam


You will need a dial indicator and the degree wheel at a minimum.
What you have done is basically finding the TDC.
Next would be finding the cam open/close specs and where they are at on the degree wheel.

John, I bought the Degree wheel and I own the dial indicator. I sent my roommate out with the directions I found on line. He is smart and has done all the hands on this project. He came in and said that he got 1-1/2 degrees advanced. Ironically, this cam came through Butler performance with the intent that I install it straight up. We originally installed this "041" Cam with the dot up at 12 o'clock on both gears and the router pointed at the steering wheel and the piston at TDC on the Compression stroke and both valves closed. We have the Heads sent out being remanufactured at this time and the Intake is off, how hard can this be to find TDC? We are looking at it directly, the roommate installed the dial indicator over the #1 Piston and raised the Piston until it went no further and zero it out. Now we have Initial TDC, we lined up the Wire hanger to that setting. he went CW 360 degrees and came to the same place, then he went CCW 360 degrees and obtained a reading of 1-1/2. What does that # represent? One person stated that is the slop in the timing chain, I thought it might be the Advance built into the Cam by Melling at the factory. This is brand new Timing advance Gears and chain and Cam has maybe 2000 miles on it. One person said we need to find TDC at .050" each way. So, i will show my roommate his and your post tonight and see what we find out. Everything is still installed on the motor. Some were in the archives on my computer, I have TDC, ATDC, BTDC, etc... for all the events. If I can find that information then I can use it to compare my findings, as I learn how to use the degree wheel 101, like a Cam card that I never received with the Cam. The only thing I remember is that Intake is 112 c/l and the Exhaust is 115 c/l and the difference is 3 divided by 2 = 1-1/2 advance degrees that was built into the cam. So, I can install it straight -up. Once we find the actual TDC we can move on to the next step that you're talking about. After that is done, I want to advance the cam, this time safely, knowing where we are truly at.