[GTO-relic]

Originally Posted by 68bird400HO

The stock fuel pump in my 68 bird 400 finally failed after 20+ years earlier this Spring. In shopping for a new one, the main brands available were AC Delco, Airtex, Delphi, and Carter. I chose the Delphi as the reviews seemed a little better. When it arrived, I had some reservations as it was made in China and they didn't even include a gasket. Put it on and ran great until last week when it died and left me stranded. Didn't even last 200 miles. So, this time I ordered the Carter since it was supposedly made in USA. Just received it looks exactly like the same tooling as the Delphi and also says Made in China. I think Airtex is probably the same and I don't see the AC Delco one out there anymore. I am thinking of just sending the Carter back because I can't enjoy my car wondering if/when the pump is going to leave me stranded every time I drive it.

I put a fresh 455 in my GTO back in December 2021, went through same thing, but with electric pump. I always ran an electric at the tank pushing into a mechanical pump on street engine. Combed Ebay found NOS vintage mechanical pumps, and bought a good one replacement for SD455. also a few SD421 stock pumps as spares. all USA made. then tried to buy a made in USA Carter electric pump self regulated 6.5 psi which I always ran on street cars since 1985. no dice. there ain't none. bought the made in China "Carter", it ran but pumped no fuel right from the get go. then it worked, then didn't work. so I removed it. what a POS. I had already known about the poor quality Chinese parts. every thing in my engine is NOS old USA made parts off Ebay or message boards or friends who still had it laying around. Cam, lifters, head gaskets, SD455 oil pump, bearings, everything. there is a difference, reliability, and superior metallurgy. another thing I noticed is all the vintage Pontiac NOS stuff I had in my saved items on Ebay, it eventually all sold....so everything is realizing the same thing. we have a parts chain with schit parts quality from China

[Formulajones]

That's been a lot of my experience lately for the most part. Even new parts today stating made in the USA are a bit of a misnomer if you pay attention to how that works these days.

So ya just have to roll the dice, buy and use what you can find and cross your fingers. Carry spares for the long road trips and hope things go well. At this point I'm just happy things are still being made at all for these old cars.

[Ram Air IV Jack]

Originally Posted by GTO-relic

I put a fresh 455 in my GTO back in December 2021, went through same thing, but with electric pump. I always ran an electric at the tank pushing into a mechanical pump on street engine. Combed Ebay found NOS vintage mechanical pumps, and bought a good one replacement for SD455. also a few SD421 stock pumps as spares. all USA made. then tried to buy a made in USA Carter electric pump self regulated 6.5 psi which I always ran on street cars since 1985. no dice. there ain't none. bought the made in China "Carter", it ran but pumped no fuel right from the get go. then it worked, then didn't work. so I removed it. what a POS. I had already known about the poor quality Chinese parts. every thing in my engine is NOS old USA made parts off Ebay or message boards or friends who still had it laying around. Cam, lifters, head gaskets, SD455 oil pump, bearings, everything. there is a difference, reliability, and superior metallurgy. another thing I noticed is all the vintage Pontiac NOS stuff I had in my saved items on Ebay, it eventually all sold....so everything is realizing the same thing. we have a parts chain with schit parts quality from China

This is EXACTLY what I have been saying for years!!! Most of the Chinese stuff is junk and won't last!! Then you hear the BS about NOS pumps are not to be trusted because they are old!! OK, so let's trust the Chinese stuff instead?? Come on people, that is insane!! The real reason people don't go NOS is the cost of these parts!! Cliff R commented on this and said he's had numerous cheap customers try the Chinese fuel pumps 3, 4, or more times then throw in the towel. and go in a different direction!! I agree here. The cost of NOS parts is very high but as I mentioned before, these parts get sold quickly for obvious reasons! It is a personal decision, but if you have a rare/original ride, I would think you would want to use as many factory parts as possible!!!

[Formulajones]

Personally, I save the NOS parts for high end (expensive) restorations that need it for one reason or another, not particularly for the reason of reliability per say, because cars like that aren't really driven much at all.

It really just depends on the purpose of the car. Since I daily drive classics, I look more towards reliability, so NOS wouldn't make much sense on consumable parts. So I go a different direction that I explained earlier in this thread, and it would apply to most people here that basically have nice classic cars they enjoy that are not necessarily concours restored stuff.

Want reliability? 2 things I've found that work reliably. Either a RobbMC pump that uses good internals, and even offers cheap rebuild kits for easy repair when the time comes. Carry a spare.
Or..... get yourself an EFI tank, put a good Walbro pump in the tank with proper feed and return lines and enjoy a more modern fuel system that is used in millions of cars on the roads today. That's about as good as it gets.

[68bird400HO]

Originally Posted by Ram Air IV Jack

This is EXACTLY what I have been saying for years!!! Most of the Chinese stuff is junk and won't last!! Then you hear the BS about NOS pumps are not to be trusted because they are old!! OK, so let's trust the Chinese stuff instead?? Come on people, that is insane!! The real reason people don't go NOS is the cost of these parts!! Cliff R commented on this and said he's had numerous cheap customers try the Chinese fuel pumps 3, 4, or more times then throw in the towel. and go in a different direction!! I agree here. The cost of NOS parts is very high but as I mentioned before, these parts get sold quickly for obvious reasons! It is a personal decision, but if you have a rare/original ride, I would think you would want to use as many factory parts as possible!!!

Jack - I think everyone agrees that most Chinese stuff is junk. But just because a part is GM or Delco doesn't make it immortal. Yes, NOS parts that don't have soft components are expensive and maybe worth the cost. But rubber diaphragms will deteriorate over time from sitting, much like your tires will petrify over time and become unsafe after 15 or 20 years. NOS parts with these soft components are a risk to use. People can ask what they want and may find someone to pay it, but that doesn't make it a safe reliable part for a car that gets driven.

This is not my first rodeo with fuel pump failures, just my first recent one where no good stock replacements are available anymore. About 30 years ago I had a fuel pump go while driving my 69 GS Stage1. It started running rough so I tried getting it home and didn't realize it was leaking gas into my oil pan. Needless to say, it took out my bottom end and had to yank the motor. I actually didn't know it could do that. So, yeah, I am not going to trust rubber that's been sitting a shelf for 30+ years for this particular item.

With that said, I did pick up a USA made stock replacement that is less than 10 years old with the correct arm. The bird is alive again.

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by 68bird400HO

Jack - I think everyone agrees that most Chinese stuff is junk.

I don't blame that on China. Junk is junk no matter where it's made. This may be my perpetual rant, but IMO it's the brands that control the design and manufacturing that LET IT be junk. If you hire a Chinese manufacturer to make your fuel pump and you accept junk, it's on you, not the manufacturer. Just my opinion...

... But rubber diaphragms will deteriorate over time from sitting, much like your tires will petrify over time and become unsafe after 15 or 20 years. NOS parts with these soft components are a risk to use. People can ask what they want and may find someone to pay it, but that doesn't make it a safe reliable part for a car that gets driven...

I think this is good insight. Polymers deteriorate. Chemical bonds break. Heat and ozone accelerate that. Polymer and elastomer chemistry has advanced a lot in 50 years.

With that said, I did pick up a USA made stock replacement that is less than 10 years old with the correct arm. The bird is alive again.

Excellent! Glad you found a pump that is working well for you, at least so far! And I hope it lasts forever!

And forgive me for repeating my rant, but your USA pump suggests the brand knows what a good pump is. 10 years later that same brand decided they would roll over and accept lesser quality when they sourced from a foreign manufacturer. JMO...

Mike

[Sirrotica]

The consumer is why auto parts are sourced from overseas, rather than made from more reliable vendors with better quality parts. Back in the 80s the low dollar parts started working their way into the parts channels.

Back then an X body GM car CV joint was right around $200, the low dollar imports from places like china were $60, Am Gauge was the cheapest priced parts out there, we mechanics called them WHAM GAUGE, cause you're going to get spanked......

What is the average joe going to buy? He can barely afford to make car payments, buy gas, and oil for his car to get back, and forth to work. Naturally he's gonna buy the cheap import part, and hope for the best. I've been in the auto repair field since before I graduated in 1970. This was the beginning of the cheap offshore parts market. There were cheap parts available before then, but most of them were avoided like the plague, and the cheap outlets soon went out of business. JC Whitney, (now Carparts.com), and Warshawskys stuck around longer han they should have, the Spiegel catlogue for car parts.....

As median household incomes dropped, and the internet started to be used more by everyone, the only thing that people wanted to know, is how much can I buy that part for, the cheaper the better for them. They'll argue with countermen if a competitors price is a dollar less.

Chains started advertising that they'll beat anyones price, That guarantee that they'll beat anyones price, is a serious problem. They'll sell you a part with a 90 day warranty, and people will still buy it, even though it's basically a curbside warranty, if your car makes it past the curb, you own it.

It makes me sick to try and sort out formerly quality brands, and prices to get something that will last at least a few years, and most times these parts are going on my own cars, and I hate doing work over because of defective parts.

Some people don't care if they have to put in 3 starters before they get one that works. The store with the lowest prices was king, so soon all the legitimate manufacturers started loosing sales, and they had to do something to compete, and they either cheapen their products across all lines, or come out with a economy parts line for price shoppers.

The pinch of the middle class with low wages, drove consumers to become their own worst enemies. It's not just car parts, it's everything we buy. The atttude now is, If I can't afford quality, I'll be content with second rate garbage. Rant over.

[Ram Air IV Jack]

Originally Posted by 68bird400HO

Jack - I think everyone agrees that most Chinese stuff is junk. But just because a part is GM or Delco doesn't make it immortal. Yes, NOS parts that don't have soft components are expensive and maybe worth the cost. But rubber diaphragms will deteriorate over time from sitting, much like your tires will petrify over time and become unsafe after 15 or 20 years. NOS parts with these soft components are a risk to use. People can ask what they want and may find someone to pay it, but that doesn't make it a safe reliable part for a car that gets driventeriora

This is not my first rodeo with fuel pump failures, just my first recent one where no good stock replacements are available anymore. About 30 years ago I had a fuel pump go while driving my 69 GS Stage1. It started running rough so I tried getting it home and didn't realize it was leaking gas into my oil pan. Needless to say, it took out my bottom end and had to yank the motor. I actually didn't know it could do that. So, yeah, I am not going to trust rubber that's been sitting a shelf for 30+ years for this particular item.

With that said, I did pick up a USA made stock replacement that is less than 10 years old with the correct arm. The bird is alive again.

Pat, the rubber theory of yours about tires doesn't hold a hill of beans!! Take a good look at my tires the next time you see my car. Those Firestone Wide Ovals are over 30 years old and still look great, like the day I bought them. Granted, rubber can deteriorate with time and age, but if cared for, can last indefinitely!! Not all Chinese parts are junk, but many of them are. I also know that GM parts are not perfect, but you have a much better chance of getting a decent part that will last rather than something made overseas!! GM made most fuel pumps for the late 60's cars up until about 2009 so you might not get one that is 30 yrs old.

I'm sure your real reason is the cost, and many people would agree with you as was pointed out earlier. But in this time of cheap parts being reproduced overseas, things have changed. Case in point, I was once told that the NOS strips for a 69 Judge would not be good to buy because the glue would be dried up and never hold. I proved that theory incorrect too and bought a set that looked and went on perfect about 32 years after they were made. Now they cost me triple what the reproduction stripes would cost but the color shades are correct where the reproduction colors are slightly off.

Cliff R is the real guru here and someone to listen to. When Cliff chimed in here a few days ago and echoed the Chinese junk talk and all the problems his many customers have had over the years with these cheap Chinese pumps, that said it all for me. It still is a personal decision, and you make yours and I make mine. I go NOS and wouldn't even think otherwise. What confused me about your comments is your story in our newsletter about searching boneyards to find a date coded voltage regulator for that same car and then rebuilding it. Granted it didn't cost that much but still I thought you wanted everything correct on your 68 Bird? Bottom line is, we agree to disagree about these pumps!! That is all I will say on the subject!!