[Cliff R]

"we moved the Crank Gear advanced by four notches. Each notch at the Crank is two degrees adding up to (eight degrees total) at the Crank"


FWIW I read the paragraph about where the cam is at couple of times and could make no sense out of it whatsoever. I've been at this engine building this coming up on half a Century and couldn't get a grip on it and I don't have or have never had any cam gears with "notches" on them. About the only timing sets I could move without offset keys were the 9 keyway sets and each movement of the crank gear REQUIRES the installer to use a NEW reference point or "dot" to line up with the "dot" the cam gear. Early Rollmaster sets were not well marked and the instructions sent with then as useless as the toilette paper you doddled last time you sat on the crapper.

I've seen very experienced engine builders screw that pooch up pretty good when using Rollmaster timing sets when they deviated from "dot to dot" and started using the advance or retard keyways.........FWIW.....

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"we moved the Crank Gear advanced by four notches. Each notch at the Crank is two degrees adding up to (eight degrees total) at the Crank"


FWIW I read the paragraph about where the cam is at couple of times and could make no sense out of it whatsoever. I've been at this engine building this coming up on half a Century and couldn't get a grip on it and I don't have or have never had any cam gears with "notches" on them. About the only timing sets I could move without offset keys were the 9 keyway sets and each movement of the crank gear REQUIRES the installer to use a NEW reference point or "dot" to line up with the "dot" the cam gear. Early Rollmaster sets were not well marked and the instructions sent with them as useless as the toilet paper you doddled last time you sat on the crapper.

I've seen very experienced engine builders screw that pooch up pretty good when using Rollmaster timing sets when they deviated from "dot to dot" and started using the advance or retard keyways.........FWIW.....

Then it is a good thing that today comp cams has taken the thinking out of performing this important procedure. The instructions are online in the various forum groups, as well as in the box the Gears come in, FWIW MIKE out.

P.S. The miss-leading information out there is plentiful and sometimes confusing, often times unreliable. I choose to ask lots of questions, so ultimately, I came to the correct conclusion, "not" better than anyone, just more informed before dedicating my assets to the fix.

Also, my 1967 428 ci HO YK code Harmonic Balancer is different than most and the last year for it. First there is no rubber used that year (1967) and the Hub is made of solid Cast Iron and bolts to the Balancer, that also is an Iron weight with a stamped steel that is joined in some pressed manufactured method, that you need to be an engineer in order to understand the processed method. Then the two stamped pulleys are three Belts in one and one separate pully for the AC, if you need it. Then there is a plate with holes in it with various bolts that will assemble the amalgamation of parts together. Only the center Hub is damaged on mine. This very important part needs to be replaced with a quality unit. I want one that works with the existing pully system so I can retain Pontiac factory look, everything in my Engine compartment has the 1967 appearance and I want to maintain that look. However, I must insist that there be 360-degree lines and marks for Timing the Engine. Steel/Iron Billet is good, But I am wondering if I should go for Billet Aluminum to lighten the unsprang weight on the reciprocating parts like the Crank, rods, Pistons and Wrist pins. I am willing to spend between $300-$400 for the best. After studying my broken Hub and seeing the Crack along the existing keyway. one can only surmise this happening on another 50 year old part. I agree with your statement about purchasing another ancient used Pontiac Hub.

[Kenth]

https://www.amesperf.com/parts/13651/

With all the talk about doing this and that with blocks and heads and god knows what, you're going to continue to build the engine with 7 pistons backwards?

[Jay S]

Every 9 way timing set from comp I have ever seen is designed so each key effects the cam timing by 2*.

-8*, -6*, -4*, -2*, 0*, 2*, 4*, 6*, 8*

I hope the cam was degreed in after the cam timing was changed. The 9 way timing sets are designed to changed the cam timing in 2* increments, irregardless of the crank turning twice as fast as the cam.

Sometimes harmonic balancers fail because something on the inside of the engine create’s an unusual stress on it. Could be having one piston in backwards contributed to the cracked hub.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Every 9-way timing set from comp I have ever seen is designed so each key affects the cam timing by 2*.

-8*, -6*, -4*, -2*, 0*, 2*, 4*, 6*, 8*

I hope the cam was degreed in after the cam timing was changed. The 9-way timing sets are designed to change the cam timing in 2* increments, regardless of the crank turning twice as fast as the cam.


Sometimes harmonic balancers fail because something on the inside of the engine creates an unusual stress on it. It could be having one piston in backwards contributed to the cracked hub.

The Gears were set to "no" advance to start, yes.


It sounds like you don't think that the Trans. accident that I had destroyed my TH 400. Due to running over a root, under a driveway, that caused an upward push under the Trans Oil Pan while the Engine was running caused a forward Thrusting movement to all the internal shafts in the Trans., carrying through to the Engines Crank shaft, then the Hub? Several people said that the Crank Harmonic Balancer Hub breaks at the key way often enough for other reasons. Since I don't know, I reasoned that this is how, in this case, the Hub became unusable.

Your theory is as good as mine. Being that I found the broken Hub after the Trans. rebuild and that it was after the accident in the garage running the vehicle is when I experienced the Ghost noise first and then again when I first began to test and tune the rebuilt Trans, I stick with moving on with fixing the locations that I have been convinced will do the best, in this case. For the last ten years I have been jumping over Hurdles trying to move past one problem or another, since they happen at different times I address them as so, one at a time. This fix is $600 having the Heads remanufactured, $210 in gaskets, some miss. items and next will be the new Hub or combination of a Hub and Harmonic Balancer, I found a respectable Billet unit for $210-$230.

$ 1000 is the limit for cash, at this time, I will take my chances and keep my fingers crossed. However, rite you are, in stating that I should rebuild the bottom end now, due keep in mind that the car has been off the road now for two years due to the Trans. rebuild. Time to save some more money, besides I am curious enough to find out whether or not I have correctly diagnosed the noise anomaly. I will squeeze the miles out of this Crank case, I am guessing I have at least 50k hidden usable miles to use, but who is to say I hope there is more.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Kenth

https://www.amesperf.com/parts/13651/

With all the talk about doing this and that with blocks and heads and god knows what, you're going to continue to build the engine with 7 pistons backwards?

I have no problem with the pistons in backwards. I would turn the 8th one around (backward) make sure the rods are correct direction on the crank and call it a day.

Stan

["QUICK-SILVER"]

What is piston deck height on this project?

Pistons "look like" stock.

That 1/10th of an inch extra stroke should have pistons above deck with stock rods and stock pistons.

How was oil clearance on the rod bearings measured? And did the top half of the bearings get inspected?

The throws with .005" oil clearance are a bit much.

Given your location and engine temp problems... I would do some serious homework on SCR and DCR before running that cam advanced more than what's ground in.

And there's more
Clay

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

What is piston deck height on this project?

Pistons "look like" stock.

That 1/10th of an inch extra stroke should have pistons above deck with stock rods and stock pistons.

How was oil clearance on the rod bearings measured? And did the top half of the bearings get inspected?

The throws with .005" oil clearance are a bit much.

Given your location and engine temp problems... I would do some serious homework on SCR and DCR before running that cam advanced more than what's ground in.

And there's more
Clay

We did not measure from the center of the Crank to the top of the Deck; however, the piston is flat in the center and we used a straight edge bolted down and placed a feeler gauge in between the TDC of the number one-cylinder Piston and found 0.035". This is from memory, when My roommate comes home, I will ask him, I am thinking a little more than that. So, the Piston is not past the Deck for sure. We are performing a cooling mod. while the Heads are off, theoretically netting us 10 - 30 degrees cooler, we will see. Here is the Oil Temp. results:

RPM 190 degrees 220 degrees
500 20 psi 15 psi
700 20 psi 15 psi
900 25 psi 20 psi
1000 25 psi 20 psi
1500 30 psi 25 psi
2000 35 psi 30 psi

You said:

"That 1/10th of an inch extra stroke should have pistons above deck with stock rods and stock pistons."

Considering this a stock motor, my roommate took measurements the best way he could, at the time. The rods are stock length.

Note: The Deck is not cut down, we know this because we can read the Piston letter code on each of the eight cylinders.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

I have no problem with the pistons in backwards. I would turn the 8th one around (backward) make sure the rods are correct direction on the crank and call it a day.

Stan

Perhaps that is my next project, this one is winding down, the machinist called today, wanting to know what vehicle my motor was in, so he can look up some parts. I told him to look up any 1967 Pontiac, that used the 428 ci Engine, HO was an upgrade option for all 1967 vehicles or so I read.