[78w72]

This is not my product, its amsoil's, the link was for information.

"I can't see any reason not to use Trans fluid." Did you read the article?? It gives about 4 or 5 rather important reason to NOT use it. Amsoil does not back your technique, they mentioned it was a DIY thing and there are better products to use. Seafoam used the right way is better than ATF IMO.

For the majority of DIY guys that did/do use ATF as a cleaner, its usually 1-2 qts added to oil, not 100% ATF, there are no lubrication properties in ATF like an engine oil to protect the internals of the engine, that would be the worst thing for any engine regardless of age, but if thats how you insist doing it... carry on.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

This is not my product, it's amsoil's, the link was for information.

"I can't see any reason not to use Trans fluid." Did you read the article?? It gives about 4 or 5 rather important reasons to NOT use it. Amsoil does not back your technique, they mentioned it was a DIY thing and there are better products to use. Seafoam used the right way is better than ATF IMO.

For the majority of DIY guys that did/do use ATF as a cleaner, its usually 1-2 qts added to oil, not 100% ATF, there are no lubrication properties in ATF like an engine oil to protect the internals of the engine, that would be the worst thing for any engine regardless of age, but if that's how you insist doing it... carry on.

I will, I do want to say that the Trans. mechanic that turned me on to this idea, said that he ran the Vehicle for 300,000 miles and it looked brand new. I have to ask "why did he have to rebuild the engine then"? However, in his Dream he ran the "041" cam in his Pontiac over a cliff, you know the rest..."goodnight to the Moderator". Mike out.

Thank you for the new and valuable Info. I am allways learning even though I have different opinions at times.

Do you think that I should try moving one notch on the advanced side of the "041" Cam to try and get some advance, other than the 1.5 degrees that Melling built into this "041" Cam, any time after I finish with the Dist. build?

[78w72]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I will, I do want to say that the Trans. mechanic that turned me on to this idea, said that he ran the Vehicle for 300,000 miles and it looked brand new. I have to ask "why did he have to rebuild the engine then"? However, in his Dream he ran the "041" cam in his Pontiac over a cliff, you know the rest..."goodnight to the Moderator". Mike out.

Thats not a moderator... we are free to discuss things mentioned in this thread, the cam issue seems to be resolved for now after you changed your cam timing... but the engine should not be pinging at 12° initial while sitting in the driveway with no load, but im sure others will be along to address that...

On your trans fluid cleaning procedure... anyone else ever completely fill an engine with ATF to clean it? Or heard of doing that? What do y'all think pure ATF in an engine does for bearings and other internals?

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by 78w72

Thats not a moderator... we are free to discuss things mentioned in this thread, the cam issue seems to be resolved for now after you changed your cam timing... but the engine should not be pinging at 12° initial while sitting in the driveway with no load, but im sure others will be along to address that...

On your trans fluid cleaning procedure... anyone else ever completely fill an engine with ATF to clean it? Or heard of doing that? What do y'all think pure ATF in an engine does for bearings and other internals?

No, I have never run ATF in an engine. But the Tremec 5 speed in my old Mustang used ATF. So I would believe the bearings would be fine. As far as some getting into the combustion process. If you ever had a vacuum modulator go in many cases the engine was sucking / burning ATF.

Stan

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

No, I have never run ATF in an engine. But the Tremec 5 speed in my old Mustang used ATF. So I would believe the bearings would be fine. As far as some getting into the combustion process. If you ever had a vacuum modulator go in many cases the engine was sucking / burning ATF.

Stan

Are the bearings in a 5 spd transmission the same as bearings in a engine? Im not too familiar with manual trans internals but I dont think they are subject to the same type of forces that require an oil film under pressure to keep moving parts separated... let alone cam/lifter surfaces under extreme pressures and wear or piston to cylinder wall wear etc.

Just curious what others have done or heard about using trans fluid in an engine to help mike understand why its not a good idea, amsoil explains its pretty good about lowering oils viscosity when used at 1-2qts... but completely filling an engine seems very counter productive and just asking for trouble.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

Are the bearings in a 5 speed transmission the same as bearings in a engine? I'm not too familiar with manual trans internals but I don't think they are subject to the same type of forces that require an oil film under pressure to keep moving parts separated... let alone cam/lifter surfaces under extreme pressures and wear or piston to cylinder wall wear etc.

Just curious what others have done or heard about using trans fluid in an engine to help mike understand why it's not a good idea, Amsoil explains its pretty good about lowering oils viscosity when used at 1-2qts... but completely filling an engine seems very counterproductive and just asking for trouble.

I want to make it clear to the new commers to this Thread that I don't run my Engine on Trans. Fluid. I only flush out my Engines for 1/2 an hour from time to time or when I purchase somebody else's junk ride that I know nothing about. Then I inspect the Timing Gear and chain to see how much slack is in the chain in order to get an idea on the milage of the Vehicle, providing it has not been changed before, there are differences between the factory Timing Gear with the Teflon coated sprockets and the aftermarket one that has not been coated.

Yes, the Motors Crank rides on a film of oil between the Journals as well as the "041" Cam in my 428 ci HO Pontiac. Without this film of oil, the Motor will seize up. Now Motor oil that I use is 10-30 Viscosity, I think for argument's sake that ATF is some ware in that Viscosity range? Thus, there is not a problem there.

Oil vs. Trans. fluid, Trans. Fluid has cleaners to keep debris out of the small areas that they have on the interior and exterior, like in the Valve Body. After building mine, that contains a smaller screen, before the Governer Valve to keep it clean so the Trans always shifts as it was designed to.

Motor oil does not contain the same detergents as the Trans., because they don't need them. Sure, the small gap in the Bearings is completely different than the Bearings in an Automatic Transmission. Have you ever seen or built one to know the difference between an Engine Rod/Cam Bearings VS. an AT Trans. Bearing? The Motor Vehicle Bearing rides on a film of Motor oil and they will never touch as long as the oil pressure is present all the time. Now, the Trans. Bearings are spaced throughout the entire Unit and are designed like wheel Bearings; in that they ride on grease and the Needle Bearings spin as the Wheel rotates while in the AT. Trans. the Shaft Ends ride on ATF and the Needle Bearings spin. The Thrust Throughout the Trans. Shaft ends carry the load throughout the entire Trans. and end at the rear of the Case. From there the Thrust goes out the output Shaft to the rear of the Engine to the Thrust Bearing out front, to the Crank Shaft to Harmonic Balancer. This is why I think that my Vehicle Trans. accident that lifted the Trans. , drive train, moved forward and caused the shock wave forward and cracked the Harmonic Balancer, because there was no problem with the HB before the Trans. was lifted up, while moving forward, on a driveway made of asphalt, without pouring the proper cement first.

The Transmission fluid is developed for Trans. only and should be used for that purpose. The Factory told us to use Oil in the Motor, so that is what I do. The Trans. Mechanic that drove his Vehicle for 300,000 miles doing a test, made out well. I don't think that I would ever use his idea, I follow the factory experts all the time. As far as flushing out my Engines that I own, I can and will experiment. For the past 10 years I have been experimenting with keeping the Engine Temps. down. I had a 1981 Camaro Z-28 that I had to stop at the Bridge as a Boat went by to open the Hood to let the under-Hood Heat out. I had add-on AC on that Vehicle, I never did figure out why that was necessary, now I think that is why the factory never installed AC on it to begin with. Of course, the Car came with AC, but the factory knew what add-ons they needed to add for it to work, I didn't.

So, Trans. fluid is slippery, uses detergents and is approx. 10 Viscosity, how could ATF hurt any Motor when flushing for 1/2-hour existing debris? Compared to Amsoil, Seafoam or any bodies flush solution and their perspective ingredients that do the same for more money?

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

I ran ATF in my Gear Vendors unit as per Factory spec., I tried Synthetic 90 wt lube, but it was too thick and clogged the screen in the unit that they don't show in their little book, that they make you pay for. I found the book on the internet for free.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

[QUOTE=78w72; 6466333] This is not my product, it's AMSOIL's, the link was for information.
Mike said:
"I can't see any reason "not" to use Trans., fluid."

Did you read the article? Ans. Finally, yes, I did!

MIKE SAID: HERE IS THAT ARTICLE, READ DOWN SOME BELOW!

Quote of the day by me: "Mike would not sell you on an idea unless he used that idea himself and found it to work".


You said:
It gives about 4 or 5 rather important reasons to "NOT" use it. Amsoil does not back your technique, they mentioned it was a DIY thing and there are better products to use. Seafoam used the right way is better than ATF IMO.

For the majority of DIY guys that did/do use ATF as a cleaner, its usually 1-2 qts added to oil, not 100% ATF, there are no lubrication properties in ATF like an engine oil to protect the internals of the engine, that would be the worst thing for any engine regardless of age, but if that's how you insist doing it... carry on.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does the PY forum say: Vote ATF for Mike or Amsoil for 78w72. Only one vote per member, don't forget to read the small print...HA
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mikes reply:

The AMSOIL cost: $14.69/pt x 16 pt (2gl) = $235.04, if you use it "FULL Strength" as Mike is.

Once upon a time, around the Valve Stem debate, you accused me of believing in what the manufacturer of their product thought about their own product, "was not true and that I bought into their hype". You're doing that now by thinking that your Amsoil product will clean Mikes motor better than Mike using (2 gal) of ATF that costs:

$13 x 2 = $26 Bucks'.

I propose this: "if we were to clean both your and my Motors, using our preferred products and methods, both Motors will be equally as clean at the end of the day and I can do it for less money. There is absolutely no bad reason to use (2 gal) of ATF" full strength", while running in an Engine like a Pontiac 428 ci HO. It won't hurt any of the internal parts of an Engine over one half-hours' time. This has been tested on several Motors by Mike and I can attest to this as being Factual and in a court of law I would attest to this statement...

ENGINE AND TRANSMISSION FLUSH $14.69/16 oz. Bottle


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In transmissions, deposits can form on clutch plates, causing hesitation and erratic shifting. Ultimately clutch glazing can set in, reducing the life of the transmission. Deposits in engines and transmissions can accelerate wear, causing power loss and increased fuel consumption.

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NOTE: It is not recommended to flush transmissions that do not have a removable pan or access to the transmission filter.

Automatic transmission clutch plates pre-cleanup.
(above) Automatic transmission clutch plates pre-cleanup. Varnish and glazing is heavy on some of the plates.
Automatic transmission clutch plates after cleanup.
(above) Automatic transmission clutch plates after cleanup with AMSOIL Engine and Transmission Flush reveal lighter glazing and varnish.
Cylinder head pre-cleanup.
(above) Cylinder head pre-cleanup. Note the sludge deposits on and around the valve springs and push rod openings.
Cylinder head after cleanup with AMSOIL Engine and Transmission Flush.
(above) Cylinder head after cleanup with AMSOIL Engine and Transmission Flush. The valve springs and push rod openings are noticeably cleaner, with fewer sludge deposits. The manufacturer's stamping is more easily seen.
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Current price:
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You said:
"Did you read the article?? It gives about 4 or 5 rather important reasons to NOT use it."

Mikes reply: PLEASE LIST THE 5 REASONS ABOVE THAT HAVE AMSOIL SAYING "DONT USE ATF".

Note: I would bet that the main ingredient in their product is petroleum distillates, an active ingredient in ATF.

Note: The Amsoil product uses: "Due to its detergent-based formulation, it can be easily disposed of with waste oil, making it more user-friendly. Its advanced formula of light base oil technology, powerful detergents and dispersants provides safe cleaning action"

(1) Detergent-based formulation.

(2) Avanced formula of light base oil technology.

(3) Powerful detergents and dispersants.

(4) Detergent-based formula cleans sludge and deposit build-up.


Note: All of these ingredients are in Trans. fluid, just in different quantities. IMO