[Formulajones]

You dont set your total timing with vacuum hooked up.

What tom and others are trying to explain when doing that is rev the engine until all advance is done and set timing at your total, without vacuum advance. This assures that total timing under wide open throttle doesn't exceed a certain number you're after. Vacuum advance is inop under wide open throttle so it's not a player here.

Most likely 38-39 will be too high for total mechanical timing in a pump gas deal like yours. You may end up more in the 32-34 range.

Only after this is set properly will the vacuum advance be hooked up and dialed in, on top of you total. Usually end up with maybe 10-12 degrees additional that should put you around 44-46 degrees which is only in play at light throttle cruising. With that done your initial should be somewhere around 12 degrees if the distributor is set up properly.

You likely won't come close to hitting these numbers or anything resembling these numbers without modifying the breaker plate and welding things as cliff mentioned.

For this I'd recommend you send the distributor out to a qualified individual.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Note: You don't set your Total Timing with vacuum hooked up. "Disconnect the Vacuum advance"

HOW TO SET UP YOUR DIST. WITH ALL-IN TIMING. EXAMPLE:

When you want to make your own "All-in" Timing CURVE, BEGIN WITH Doing this, by revving the engine up until all your advance is at your choice degree (example: 32-34 degrees BTDC.) move to the highest number that the dist. will keep increasing to a higher numeral and then back off some, NOW set the Total Timing of your own choice, your total. This assures that Total Timing, under wide open throttle, doesn't exceed a certain number that you're after. Vacuum Advance is inoperable under wide open throttle, so it's "not" a player here.

Most likely 38-39 will be too high for Total Mechanical Timing in a pump gas deal like yours. You may end up more in the 32-34 * range.

Only after this is set properly will the Vacuum Advance be hooked up and dialed in, on top of your total. Usually, you will end up with maybe 10-12 degrees, additional, that should put you around 44-46 degrees, which is only in play at light throttle cruising. With that done, your initial should be somewhere around 12 degrees, if the distributor is set up properly.

You likely won't come close to hitting these numbers or anything resembling these numbers without modifying the breaker plate and welding things as cliff mentioned.

For this I'd recommend you send the distributor out to a qualified individual.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I Plan on using this Dist. for now, we are now timed:

6* BTDC. Initial @ 700 RPM and 9" HG.

40* BTDC. All-in @ 2250 RPM and 21" HG.

"These settings are with the Vacuum advance Hooked up"

Here is the curve:
RPM Degrees BTDC. HG
(1) 650-700 6 9
(2) 1000 18 13
(3) 1250 26 14
(4) 1500 30 16
(5) 1750 34 18
(6) 2000 38 20
(7) 2250 40 21
(8) 2500 40 22
(9) 3000 40 22



Please modify this message to suit even more than I modified it. The reason is I added and changed your formula by using material in my mind that may not be correct, so you get the final say so. I tried to make this easy to read for the future so that there is no guess work. Mike OUT.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I Plan on using this Dist. for now, we are now timed:

6* BTDC. Initial @ 700 RPM and 9" HG.

40* BTDC. All-in @ 2250 RPM and 21" HG.

"These settings are with the Vacuum advance on"

Here is the curve:
RPM Degrees BTDC. HG
(1) 650-700 6 9
(2) 1000 18 13
(3) 1250 26 14
(4) 1500 30 16
(5) 1750 34 18
(6) 2000 38 20
(7) 2250 40 21
(8) 2500 40 22
(9) 3000 40 22

So your initial is low and your total timing (without vacuum) is also going to be very low. The engine is missing quite a bit of performance and efficiency that way. Maybe when you feel like revisiting it we can straighten it out.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

So your initial is low and your total timing (without vacuum) is also going to be very low. The engine is missing quite a bit of performance and efficiency that way. Maybe when you feel like revisiting it, we can straighten it out.

I can tell you this I do have the dist. rebuild kit in stock, how to if you want to use it is the question?
Some people are saying it is crap and all. I would use it; it is all I have to work with. Comes with the Vacuum Canister, weights and springs, stop device and instructions. I am told that I can use it with my springs added to the springs in the kit or we can use the existing dist. that I have. I will be back on line tomorrow, been on for 24 hours allready.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I can tell you this I do have the dist. rebuild kit in stock, how to if you want to use it is the question?
Some people are saying it is crap and all. I would use it; it is all I have to work with. Comes with the Vacuum Canister, weights and springs, stop device and instructions. I am told that I can use it with my springs added to the springs in the kit or we can use the existing dist. that I have. I will be back on line tomorrow, been on for 24 hours allready.

I typically don't use those kits, not the weights and stuff like that anyway.

What I'll do is replace the pin bushing (which is usually plastic and missing) with a bronze bushing and solder it in place. Then I'll weld the slot to limit the amount of centrifugal advance that I want and that also determines the initial I'm looking for. I'll use the original weights, and I may or may not swap springs around to get the curve to come in somewhere around 3000 or so depending on the engine. Sometimes sooner, sometimes later.

Only then will the vacuum advance come into play and that takes a bunch more modifications to work right. I prefer a light tension spring since most engines I tune don't make a ton of vacuum, especially at the elevations I drive.
The best way I've found to accomplish that is use an adjustable vacuum can (Crane or Accel) just to have the adjustable spring tension only, the rest of that kit is thrown in the garbage. I'll then weld the slot on the vacuum can to limit it's travel to give me about 10-12 degrees of additional timing (when the engine is making vacuum), which is usually starting around 6 inches and all done by 9-12 inches of vacuum. This part is only critical for very light throttle driving/cruising, and can play a roll in idle quality depending on whether you use ported or manifold vacuum but that's an entirely different discussion.

Explaining all this on the internet is about impossible. I'd have to have the distributor and the car in my hands to get it all dialed in, while in the process making sure top dead center is found and checking that the balancer is correct.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I typically don't use those kits, not the weights and stuff like that anyway.

What I'll do is replace the pin bushing (which is usually plastic and missing) with a bronze bushing and solder it in place. Then I'll weld the slot to limit the amount of centrifugal advance that I want and that also determines the initial I'm looking for. I'll use the original weights, and I may or may not swap springs around to get the curve to come in somewhere around 3000 or so depending on the engine. Sometimes sooner, sometimes later.

Only then will the vacuum advance come into play and that takes a bunch more modifications to work right. I prefer a light tension spring since most engines I tune don't make a ton of vacuum, especially at the elevations I drive.
The best way I've found to accomplish that is to use an adjustable vacuum can (Crane or Accel) just to have the adjustable spring tension only, the rest of that kit is thrown in the garbage. I'll then weld the slot on the vacuum can to limit it's travel to give me about 10-12 degrees of additional timing (when the engine is making vacuum), which is usually starting around 6 inches and all done by 9-12 inches of vacuum. This part is only critical for very light throttle driving/cruising, and can play a role in idle quality depending on whether you use ported or manifold vacuum but that's an entirely different discussion.

Explaining all this on the internet is about impossible. I'd have to have the distributor and the car in my hands to get it all dialed in, while in the process making sure top dead center is found and checking that the balancer is correct.

Mikes reply:

We installed a new Hardened Hub with the Balancer that came in the kit that cost $270.

Next, several people say that the timing is "not" the problem, I have a mechanical noise issue, one person thinks it could be the Flywheel. Not a bad theory, since my entire drive train forward was affected by the Trans. accident. We are currently proving or disproving that theory as we speak. By this weekend we will have pulled the Flywheel out. Depending whether or not it comes out in pieces will determine my next step.

Since I can't do anything with my dist. except use the parts that I purchased with the parts I have and I can buy anything online when we decide to build the Dist., we will have to set it up here, besides how else am I going to learn Timing 101 if I don't do it myself. So, let's get past this ghost noise first.

P.S. I own the adjustable Vacuum Canister and I could buy that Bushing kit online, plus I have the Black stop, off round, corrugated edge adjustable stop too. Also, in my archives I have a drawing of how to modify the Factory dist. Cam and large weights to a tighter tolerance. From what I have read one can mix the factory springs with the kit springs for a more precise Curve? The "041" Cam is degreed to factory specs. and the Cam is proven to be Milled to Melling Specs. as well. All this was done recently when we took all the advances out of the adjustable Timing Gear kit, which were at zero, no advance except in the Cam is 1.5 degrees from Melling factory. We also have the hand-held Vacuum pump to assist in setting up the Vacuum Canister to a set pull from start to stop.

[Shiny]

As a spectator trying to learn from the advice given, I'm struggling to follow this thread but appreciate your commitment and effort to learn from these experts.

Maybe it would help to re-state the problem(s)? Overheating? Pinging? Timing effect on both? Cam advance effect on both? Suitability of the cam?
All of the above?

As to your timing curve, separating the mechanical from the vacuum advance curves might help others interpret the timing effect on your problem, whether it is pinging or overheating or both...

You are being advised 6 degrees at idle is low and the total advance maxing out at 2250 rpm is early. Hard for anyone to guide you on modifying it without a clear separation between mechanical and vacuum contributions to the total.

If you are unfamiliar with all this, there are good references online. Ask and I'm sure you will be pointed to good tutorials.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Shiny

As a spectator trying to learn from the advice given, I'm struggling to follow this thread but appreciate your commitment and effort to learn from these experts.

Maybe it would help to re-state the problem(s)? Overheating? Pinging? Timing effect on both? Cam advance effect on both? Suitability of the cam?
All of the above?

As to your timing curve, separating the mechanical from the vacuum advance curves might help others interpret the timing effect on your problem, whether it is pinging or overheating or both...

You are being advised 6 degrees at idle is low and the total advance maxing out at 2250 rpm is early. Hard for anyone to guide you on modifying it without a clear separation between mechanical and vacuum contributions to the total.

If you are unfamiliar with all this, there are good references online. Ask and I'm sure you will be pointed to good tutorials.

All the information is in this thread and there are other Threads that I have been involved in that have the rest of my info. documented.

You can look at anyone's Threads that they communicated in ever, if you go into each one's own Threads that they either started or were involved in.

You could start from the beginning of this very Thread for a wealth of info. That you may enjoy and learn from as well. Don't cut yourself short, get one of those readers as I have done, let it read back to you. Personally, I use Microsoft Edge's reader and you can go out and grab spell, grammar add-on's, the forum is very much wanting us to use as little space between sentences, beware of that, Mike out.

P.S. Most of the people that are following me have been for the past couple of years and they are up to date without having to read back to the beginning. Also, I have pages of Dist. Curve and advance info. from over the internet, both written and in my own hand-held notes or stored in the Archives. That comes soon, now we're tracking a ghost noise, believed to be mechanical, as in the Flywheel as theorized by a PY member.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

So your initial is low and your total timing (without vacuum) is also going to be very low. The engine is missing quite a bit of performance and efficiency that way. Maybe when you feel like revisiting it, we can straighten it out.

Mike said:


Quote:
Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012 View Post
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I Plan on using this Dist. for now, we are now timed:

6* BTDC. Initial @ 700 RPM and 9" HG.

40* BTDC. All-in @ 2250 RPM and 21" HG.

"These settings are with the Vacuum advance on"

Here is the curve:
RPM Degrees BTDC. HG
(1) 650-700 6 9
(2) 1000 18 13
(3) 1250 26 14
(4) 1500 30 16
(5) 1750 34 18
(6) 2000 38 20
(7) 2250 40 21
(8) 2500 40 22
(9) 3000 40 22

So, your initial is low and your total timing (without vacuum) is also going to be very low. The engine is missing quite a bit of performance and efficiency that way. Maybe when you feel like revisiting it, we can straighten it out.

Mikes reply:

It looks at second glance, that I am "all- in" by 2,500 RPM, 40 * BTDC., @ 22 HG. This test must have been using the Vacuum advance hooked up to get these high numbers.

P.S. Time for me to start shopping for a new Flexplate, wish me luck!

[P@blo]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

All the information is in this thread and there are other Threads that I have been involved in that have the rest of my info. documented.

You can look at anyone's Threads that they communicated in ever, if you go into each one's own Threads that they either started or were involved in.

You could start from the beginning of this very Thread for a wealth of info. That you may enjoy and learn from as well. Don't cut yourself short, get one of those readers as I have done, let it read back to you. Personally, I use Microsoft Edge's reader and you can go out and grab spell, grammar add-on's, the forum is very much wanting us to use as little space between sentences, beware of that, Mike out.

P.S. Most of the people that are following me have been for the past couple of years and they are up to date without having to read back to the beginning. Also, I have pages of Dist. Curve and advance info. from over the internet, both written and in my own hand-held notes or stored in the Archives. That comes soon, now we're tracking a ghost noise, believed to be mechanical, as in the Flywheel as theorized by a PY member.

I think he means get a Pontiac service manual not reference your own threads for correct information? No need to reinvent the wheel here as you have a close to stock 428 and 20 pages with a bunch of bandwith waisted.

Any local Pontiac clubs around you to get some hands on help? Too much going on here and forgot what your original question about the 041cam even was.

1. Search Pontiac resources
2. Search forums for previous similar info posted.
3. Still can not find info post question, get answer, and let the thread die.

This thread is over two years old Mike and you are still asking...

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by P@blo

I think he means get a Pontiac service manual not reference your own threads for correct information? No need to reinvent the wheel here as you have close to stock 428 and 20 pages with a bunch of band-with wasted.

Any local Pontiac clubs around you to get some hands-on help? Too much going on here and forgot what your original question about the "041" Cam even was.

1. Search Pontiac resources
2. Search forums for previous similar info. posted.
3. Still cannot find info post question, get answer, and let the thread die.

This thread is over two years old Mike and you are still asking...

Do you mean that I should take this Vehicle to a Mechanic? Are you footing the Bill?

I have more than one Manual all ready and I do use them and more from the internet.

Are you paying for the Band with here, how much is it costing you?

Once I get past everything that keeps breaking on me, I will get to break in the "041" Cam and the Transmission finally. All I have experienced with this Cam is that the Vehicle has more on the top end speed, a lot more testing is required, once I get past the breakdowns and accidents!

In the past 10 years since I took over this Project, I have had to undo all my predecessors Drive Train work. He is only responsible for the Bodywork and dropping an untested Motor, Transmission and Rearend into this Car. I have with the Forum and My roommate, Built the wiring Harness, recut the driveshaft to work, built this Engine less the Bottom end, Remanufactured the entire Trans. and Heads. Had the Car painted, Remanufactured the Interior. This Car started on a rotisserie to begin with. First, we had to install front and rear glass, install the window motors, elect. door locks, Tilt Steering with Cruise control, Head liner with a custom panel under the T-Tops to keep the sun out, Trunk release, dual Batt in the Trunk with a sudbury switch, Elec. fuel pump with dual lines forward with a bypass hose, etc...

The former owner installed the Gear vendors as well, however none of the drive train was ever tested. He did not finish the brakes. He installed all the Hurb Adams suspension front and back. He also had someone install the Roll bar in the Cab and Trunk and around the motor. We had to complete the interior Dash, under Dash elec., R+R the hot water Heater System. We did the entire AC system piece by piece.

Then comes the 10 years of reading the Pontiac service Manuals, Articles, Online Info. that we gathered over the years, adding up to some 500 pages of hand written notes by me personally. Then there is the forum, PY forum, that got me through it all. So, no, I won't go to another forum on your bitter request, thank you, I will enjoy this Forum because I tried others and find this one to be true and honest, despite the ridicule that I have had persevere and endure for the last 3 years on this forum.

Last time I looked at the number of people reading this post, it was over 23,000, some people find this Thread informative, so let it go, build me up, I never put anybody down for trying.

P.S. This just touches the surface of the time and money that I have in this project. I could never afford a Mechanic to do this job and I enjoy learning besides. I have an undetermined self-learned degree in Auto-Mechanics, more than someone could go to school and get by attending two years at Vocational training for Auto Mechanics. If I were to add up the Hours I have learning, testing this Car, recording the info. to the computer and Text in a note book, I would have a four-year degree in Auto-Mechanics 101 and I have the Vehicle to prove it to the school.

By the way, while I was building this Car, I went to Atlantic Vocational for two years and received a degree in Auto-cad in both Architectural and Mechanical drafting. I had just finished school when I became self-taught in Mechanics 101 for the last 10 years. Also, my writing skills are improving as I write on the forum. This hobby keeps me alive feeling, for a disabled human being.

You seem to be helpful at times, don't forget to be humble, we all live in Gods world and none of us are better than the other.

10 years prior to this, I built two mobile homes, one had 7 rooms and the other home I built one year later. This one had had four rooms; I became a land lord and took homeless people off the streets and helped them get jobs and turn them into useful tax paying citizens again. For most people, they were someone in their past, but lost it somewhere along the way.

I also took in a Vet., who was mentally ill and supported him for 8 years out of my pocket, until we found out he was in war in Vietnam and the Gov. owed him for that, so they paid me to take care of him for 2 of the 8 years only. Later they took him away and put him in a home for his own sake. I was a homeless advocate for a while. I can't tell you how many people I took into my home, gave them a furnished room with a TV and all, no first last nor security, on their word, color, religion, sex life did not matter, all they had to do was try. When they quit trying and wanted to live off me, that was where the line in the sand was drawn and in 3 weeks of no money, they had to leave. I helped many people, mentally ill, on drugs, the hopeless and despaired, elderly, etc... in those 10 years and before that and even today. All I ask is to please give me hope, like I give others. From now on, you know me a little better, please consider giving me a break.

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

All the information is in this thread and there are other Threads that I have been involved in that have the rest of my info. documented.

You can look at anyone's Threads that they communicated in ever, if you go into each one's own Threads that they either started or were involved in.

You could start from the beginning of this very Thread for a wealth of info. That you may enjoy and learn from as well.....

I understand and agree I could search and read everything you have been through. I appreciate your perseverance and I use this forum the same way - to learn from these experts.

P.S. Most of the people that are following me have been for the past couple of years and they are up to date without having to read back to the beginning...

I suggest you deal with one topic as a time. I don't think too many members "follow" other members. In my experience, PY is "issue-focused" and everyone's attention is short.

Originally Posted by P@blo

......
This thread is over two years old Mike and you are still asking...

I think you will have better success if you open a new thread for each topic. For example, open a new thread about the flexplate. When you get past that, open a new thread for the next issue you address.

And hang in there! You obviously have a lot to be proud of and many of us share your commitment to learn and enjoy their Pontiac.

[P@blo]

Mike, all personal issues put aside. I help the elderly cross the street but I am not sure how this helps me tune an engine or pertains to the topics at hand. And I am sure you are a stand up guy no doubt about that.

Here is something also to consider. If I were to spend the next 7 years playing video games does that make me a professional Masters Degree player? Nope it just means I am old guy cannon fodder for the young people. Just because one spends years doing something does not make us automatically good at it unfortunately.

You might want to go back an reread your thread, from the begining, and map out all the good advice given. Then make some choices and pick a direction you want to go so you arrive at some form of a destination eventually.

Either that or your goal is to simply keep dragging this thread back to the top for personal reasons.