[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by tom s

With a thread about a cam who really gives a damn about any kind engine flush? Start a new thread. Tom.

How are your Intakes selling?

[MatthewKlein]

[QUOTE=TRADERMIKE 2012;6468146]

Originally Posted by tom s

With a thread about a cam who really gives a damn about any kind engine flush? Start a new thread. Tom. /QUOTE]

How are your Intakes selling?

I am really truly astonished the knowledgeable forum members continue to participate in your trainwreck. It's a tribute to their passion for these old Pontiacs.

Why are you here soliciting help if you already know how to get this car running and driving properly?

[JSchmitz]

[QUOTE=MatthewKlein;6468202]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I am really truly astonished the knowledgeable forum members continue to participate in your trainwreck. It's a tribute to their passion for these old Pontiacs.

Why are you here soliciting help if you already know how to get this car running and driving properly?

X2

And being hyper-defensive on top of it. Someone with his knowledge/skill base should be monumentally humble.

I must say that I'm amazed that he rebuilt a transmission that apparently works!

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

[QUOTE=JSchmitz;6468273]

Originally Posted by MatthewKlein

X2

And being hyper-defensive on top of it. Someone with his knowledge/skill base should be monumentally humble.

I must say that I'm amazed that he rebuilt a transmission that apparently works!

Thank you for that vote of confidence, I don't want anyone to think that I am not trying the best that I can all the time, even If I am wrong. I am a Christion and I am humble, it is only when I am backed into a corner do I come out like a Cat scratching. So, be humble toward me and I will return the courtesy.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

[QUOTE=MatthewKlein;6468202]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I am truly astonished that the knowledgeable forum members continue to participate in your trainwreck. It's a tribute to their passion for these old Pontiacs.

Why are you here soliciting help if you already know how to get this car running and driving properly?

If I knew everything, I would not be asking the Forum anything and I am experimenting as I learn, what is wrong with that? Have you anything to add about my current situation at hand that may solve my problems today? Rebuilding this Engine is not going to happen until this Vehicle is upside-down with the tires toward the sky. I know that there is life in the bottom end yet to use, if you have read the entire post, would you see that?

My Father taught me that a smart man does not know everything, he only knows how to find the answer and that is why I am here. Sorry but all of you can't be right all the time, I will pick and choose what is best for this project in a scientific manner. I simply must be allowed to grow and make mistakes when they happen, although my method works in the long run or I would not be where I am today. I am more knowledgeable than I was 10 years ago and this Vehicle is one of the best in the world, can you argue that, for a mostly stock build.

[Formulajones]

[QUOTE=TRADERMIKE 2012;6468284]

Originally Posted by MatthewKlein

Rebuilding this Engine is not going to happen until this Vehicle is upside-down with the tires toward the sky. I know that there is life in the bottom end yet to use, if you have read the entire post, would you see that?

I'm not one to be so quick to come to that conclusion. Like Cliff mentioned early on, and I agreed with, that knocking noise is most likely piston slap. It's not your flexplate, and everything else you chased didn't fix it. Piston slap does exactly what you describe, no load on the engine, sitting idling or revving, and making a knocking noise. As I said earlier, a video sure would help the other forum members.

Probably not what you want to hear but if the more likely cause is piston slap (pistons being in backwards doesn't help) that engine is going to need bored and new pistons installed to make it right. That means a full on rebuild is in your future if you want that thing straightened out. I hope you come to a satisfactory outcome but in the end, my thought is do it right once and rebuild it.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

[QUOTE=Formulajones;6468287]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I'm not one to be so quick to come to that conclusion. Like Cliff mentioned early on, and I agreed with, that knocking noise is most likely piston slap. It's not your flexplate, and everything else you chased didn't fix it. Piston slap does exactly what you describe, no load on the engine, sitting idling or revving, and making a knocking noise. As I said earlier, a video sure would help the other forum members.

Probably not what you want to hear but if the more likely cause is piston slap (pistons being in backwards doesn't help) that engine is going to need bored and new pistons installed to make it right. That means a full on rebuild is in your future if you want that thing straightened out. I hope you come to a satisfactory outcome but in the end, my thought is do it right once and rebuild it.

I won't argue with the point that someday this Engine will have to be rebuilt correctly, but now isn't the time. The one and only time that I drove a Vehicle with a clear rod knock, I can attest to what it sounds like. Also, the sound that is made by the Engine when Tuning, both by test driving and driveway tests. While turning the dist., pinging and the rest of those sounds too.

I have recently lost the sound or the Harmonic balancer with the replacement of a new complete kit, takes that scenario out of the loop. Now remains the last, I hope noise in the equation, possibly the Flex plate. I have already left a description of the next step from Butler Performance; I hope all of you have read that. So, once the parts come in, we will install them and it is my prayer that the Flexplate was the issue. If not and that recent noise is still there then I will make a video using my Android Phone for the forum, after all a picture is worth a thousand words, in this case an audio clip. The Windage Tray is the next possible part that could send a sound frequency through the Engine. As of now the latest vibration occurs between 1000-2000 RPM @ rest and driving through it between 1000 -2000 Rpm the sound disappears. When resting and revving the Motor, this latest vibration comes and goes at low RPM.

[Formulajones]

I never said rod knock. Although I can't imagine those bearings being in that great of shape after running straight ATF through the engine. They are likely scored at a minimum, shortened life span at best.

What we've been talking about for a few pages now is piston slap. We already know it's not the flexplate. You found nothing wrong with it other than oblong/worn holes and that doesn't cause a noise.

Windage tray? Maybe but I doubt it. We already know the piston mishap with this engine, having some in backwards and one in the correct way, so that alone is a red flag to most of us. Someone dropped the ball there whenever it had been messed with the first time, and should have been addressed when you found it. Unfortunately I feel that thing need to come back apart completely and refreshed properly.

Yes a video would really help everyone. There are many of us here that have heard a lot of strange things with engines. Without a video we can only guess, but from descriptions you've stated up to this point, there isn't much left to guess at and it starts to narrow things down to what some of us have mentioned already. Fingers crossed it's simple, but at this point I'm thinking it's more involved.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I never said rod knock. Although I can't imagine those bearings being in that great of shape after running straight ATF through the engine. They are likely scored at a minimum, shortened life span at best.

What we've been talking about for a few pages now is piston slap. We already know it's not the flexplate. You found nothing wrong with it other than oblong/worn holes and that doesn't cause a noise.

Windage tray? Maybe but I doubt it. We already know the piston mishap with this engine, having some in backwards and one in the correct way, so that alone is a red flag to most of us. Someone dropped the ball there whenever it had been messed with the first time and should have been addressed when you found it. Unfortunately, I feel that things need to come back apart completely and refreshed properly.

Yes, a video would really help everyone. There are many of us here that have heard a lot of strange things about engines. Without a video we can only guess, but from descriptions you've stated up to this point, there isn't much left to guess at and it starts to narrow things down to what some of us have mentioned already. Fingers crossed it's simple, but at this point I'm thinking it's more involved.

Mikes reply:

I have to ask, why would a Piston being installed as long as it has and under my own torture that I put on this Engine endure to 130 mph where I found all the internal problems and solved them over time. In the beginning the Rocker stud nut was cracked and I replaced them with 7/16" screw- in studs. While there, we installed the Johnson Hydraulic Lifters, a new oil pump and HD Chrome moly Push Rods, had a new timing Gear and dual chain.

The # 886 Cam was worn out, but who knew at that time. I had the Tri-power Carbs. completely rebuilt, by us OfCourse, using genuine Rochester parts that would have come in these Carbs. from the factory. We installed the 1/2" spacers under the Rochester's too. We had Air Induction as well and the Carbs. are up-jetted to a 428 ci Motor. So, this combo. at 70 mph, stomp on it the secondaries come in with the kickdown gear and I launch from 90mph to 120 mph throwing me back into the seat and moves slowly to 130 mph tops. Now you all tell me that I need to build the bottom end today, now?

I tell you this Engine is a monster and I still carry extra weight in the trunk due to the posi-traction W/ four-wheel Disc Brakes.

[MatthewKlein]

[QUOTE=TRADERMIKE 2012;6468284]

Originally Posted by MatthewKlein

If I knew everything, I would not be asking the Forum anything and I am experimenting as I learn, what is wrong with that? Have you anything to add about my current situation at hand that may solve my problems today? Rebuilding this Engine is not going to happen until this Vehicle is upside-down with the tires toward the sky. I know that there is life in the bottom end yet to use, if you have read the entire post, would you see that?

My Father taught me that a smart man does not know everything, he only knows how to find the answer and that is why I am here. Sorry but all of you can't be right all the time, I will pick and choose what is best for this project in a scientific manner. I simply must be allowed to grow and make mistakes when they happen, although my method works in the long run or I would not be where I am today. I am more knowledgeable than I was 10 years ago and this Vehicle is one of the best in the world, can you argue that, for a mostly stock build.

Ok, I'll attempt to add something constructive.

Going by your own words - One or more Pistons was installed incorrectly.
That is the foundation of the engine and should be corrected before anything else. At the same time check main and rod bearing clearances. Check the crankshaft thrust. Verify top dead center aligns with the timing marks on the balancer and cover.

After that get a quality timing set and install the cam properly - not to some random voodoo advance - To The Correct Spec. With a degree wheel and dial indicator.

Inspect the heads while they are off. I don't know if it's been covered but the 041 cam has specific valve spring requirements. I had a machine shop check the installed height and spring pressure on mine. CC the heads and find out what compression ratio the engine has. Static compression ratio is different than cranking compression.

I don't know what valve train you are running but I would check the pushrod length is correct.

Run a distributor with the proper timing curve. Don't change weights or springs randomly or with low quality parts. I would start with a constative total advance. Make sure the engine runs smoothly, Then start moving towards the upper end. I'm not sure you understand the difference between base timing, mechanical advance and vacuum advance. They need to work together.

All this in conjunction with a good carburetor and you will have resolved the problems.

Don't take this as an insult. A lot of what you are trying is backyard voodoo. Transmission fluid instead of engine oil is a PRIME example. Many companies offer engine flushes. Engine flush is used in conjunction with engine oil. Proper tool for the job. Just because the engine didn't immediately explode does not prove ATF in place of engine oil is a good idea.

If you want to reinvent the wheel through trial and error go right ahead. I respect personal liberty. I prefer the shortest distance between 2 points.

I'll say it again. This is not a attack. But I am really surprised everyone continues to offer help when you make excuses to ignore the help.

[Kenth]

Unbelievable that the thread starter can keep this thread alive with all the talk about this and that without realizing that engines are not built on such loose foundations as having 7 out of 8 pistons facing the wrong way in the engine.
This is something that anyone with a bit of imagination would fix in the first instance.
Instead, every time there are new comments, there seems to be new nonsense instead of something sensible, like lifting the engine out, taking it apart and putting it back together properly.

Reality show forum style.....

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Kenth

Unbelievable that the thread starter can keep this thread alive with all the talk about this and that without realizing that engines are not built on such loose foundations as having 7 out of 8 pistons facing the wrong way in the engine.
This is something that anyone with a bit of imagination would fix in the first instance.
Instead, every time there are new comments, there seems to be new nonsense instead of something sensible, like lifting the engine out, taking it apart and putting it back together properly.

Reality show forum style.....

In good time this Engine will be built, we will be inspecting the Windage Tray and the Rods orientation this weekend, be patient were getting there. I move in Baby steps, inches not feet, I am disabled and I wish I had a Geannie and I could blink my eyes, but I don't. I move methodically for a reason; it works for me.

[P@blo]

Originally Posted by Kenth

Unbelievable that the thread starter can keep this thread alive with all the talk about this and that without realizing that engines are not built on such loose foundations as having 7 out of 8 pistons facing the wrong way in the engine.
This is something that anyone with a bit of imagination would fix in the first instance.
Instead, every time there are new comments, there seems to be new nonsense instead of something sensible, like lifting the engine out, taking it apart and putting it back together properly.

Reality show forum style.....

Well said Kenth.

130+ mph? Missed that but pictures or it did not happen

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by P@blo

Well said Kenth.

130+ mph? Missed that but pictures or it did not happen

Mikes reply:

Over the first 4 years testing and tuning with the original worn out #886 Cam, I broke the sound barrier with this car, kidding, but I wore out the under rated Cooper tires at a rate of one a year reaching 130 mph many times. This car handles well at these speeds and holds to the ground. I would want to make a better front lower valance/spoiler in the future, if I wanted to go any faster and install speed rated tires to my set of fat rims...I have Hurb Adams suspension and Koni shocks on each corner and sub frame connectors. Bell tech. spindles, lowered 2" in the front.

Also, the "041" Cam will take this car faster, testing and tuning will give me that answer.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

How are your Intakes selling?

Think all of the ones he had cast up are gone and all are happy.
That being said, stick to fixing your engine, (Tom has been playing with the
Pontiac engine before you were born probably.)

Have a good day and get your engine fixed.

Tom V.