[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I never said rod knock. Although I can't imagine those bearings being in that great of shape after running straight ATF through the engine. They are likely scored at a minimum, shortened life span at best.

What we've been talking about for a few pages now is piston slap. We already know it's not the flexplate. You found nothing wrong with it other than oblong/worn holes and that doesn't cause a noise.

Windage tray? Maybe but I doubt it. We already know the piston mishap with this engine, having some in backwards and one in the correct way, so that alone is a red flag to most of us. Someone dropped the ball there whenever it had been messed with the first time and should have been addressed when you found it. Unfortunately, I feel that things need to come back apart completely and refreshed properly.

Yes, a video would really help everyone. There are many of us here that have heard a lot of strange things about engines. Without a video we can only guess, but from descriptions you've stated up to this point, there isn't much left to guess at and it starts to narrow things down to what some of us have mentioned already. Fingers crossed it's simple, but at this point I'm thinking it's more involved.

Mikes reply:

I have to ask, why would a Piston being installed backward for as long as it has and under my own torture, that I put on this Engine, endure to 130 mph. Where I found all the internal problems and solved them over time. In the beginning the Rocker stud nut was cracked and I replaced them with 7/16" screw- in studs , because I was bending the Factory Push rods. While there, we installed the Johnson Hydraulic Lifters, a new oil pump and HD Chrome moly Push Rods, had a new timing Gear and dual chain. I drove for about four years testing and tuning.

The # 886 Cam was worn out, but who knew at that time. I had the Tri-power Carbs. completely rebuilt, by us OfCourse, using genuine Rochester parts that would have come in these Carbs., from the factory. We installed the 1/2" spacers under the Rochester's too. We had Air Induction as well and the Carbs. are up-jetted to a 428 ci Motor. So, this combo. at 70 mph, stomp on it, the secondaries come in with the kickdown gear, working at this time, in synchronicity with the stock 13" Torque Converter and I launch from 90 mph to 120 mph. Throwing me back into the seat and then it moves slowly to 130 mph, tops. Now, all of you can tell me that I need to build the bottom end of this Motor, today, now?

I believe that the noises that I experience today, that I am eliminating one at a time successfully, I might add, will not beat me and if they do and all of you were correct, I will have to apologize. I am not afraid to build this Motor, I have the tools and the experience. I would use a Machine shop, where needed, because they have the tools that I don't have.

I tell you this Engine is a monster and I still carry extra weight in the trunk due to the posi-traction W/ four-wheel Disc Brakes.

By the way, when we removed the Cam # 886, years after we flushed the Motor with the ATF, the Cam Bearings did not have sufficient ware on them to be replaced and that is what I base the lower end on today, Crank Bearings, being as well of course. The Cam Bearing in the middle, had one light scratch in it, taken out with light scuff pad. So, we installed the new "041" Cam using the existing Cam Bearings. I did not know that when we installed the New Cam that we had an issue with the kickdown system, until rebuilt the Trans. The Detent solenoid wire needed repair and the Detent solenoid had to be opened and cleaned out of debris. We added a new seal to the Valve Body and tested the electronic switch.

There was another problem, so, we repaired the switch and added an LED light to the circuit. So that when we pull the plunger out of the switch and that light comes on, we know exactly where to adjust, when the light comes on, at a certain pull on the plunger and we can visualize where to make our adjustments more accurately. This is but one of the various innovations that we have made to this Vehicle, along the way. This Vehicle is a one-of-a-kind work of art to us. Thus, my original complaint about this "041" Cam is "null and void". Now that we corrected the High-end passing system that works on the Elec. Detent Solenoid, that is located at the Manual Valve Body, within the TH 400 Case.

Through the Case, the wire runs to the Detent switch at the Carb. area, attached to the linkage. I have yet to reach the new top end speed of this Motor combination, in this Vehicle, due to the fact that I don't have the speed rated tires installed in order to perform such a high-speed test. As I stated, at the start of this thread, I wore out the Cooper tires in four years at the rate of one per year, testing this Vehicle at high speed. I had no reason in putting my life in harm's way. I did not know this at that time, until the tires were separating on me, every year I had to purchase a new one.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Mikes reply:

I have to ask, why would a Piston being installed backward for as long as it has and under my own torture, that I put on this Engine, endure to 130 mph. Where I found all the internal problems and solved them over time. In the beginning the Rocker stud nut was cracked and I replaced them with 7/16" screw- in studs , because I was bending the Factory Push rods. While there, we installed the Johnson Hydraulic Lifters, a new oil pump and HD Chrome moly Push Rods, had a new timing Gear and dual chain. I drove for about four years testing and tuning.

The # 886 Cam was worn out, but who knew at that time. I had the Tri-power Carbs. completely rebuilt, by us OfCourse, using genuine Rochester parts that would have come in these Carbs., from the factory. We installed the 1/2" spacers under the Rochester's too. We had Air Induction as well and the Carbs. are up-jetted to a 428 ci Motor. So, this combo. at 70 mph, stomp on it, the secondaries come in with the kickdown gear, working at this time, in synchronicity with the stock 13" Torque Converter and I launch from 90 mph to 120 mph. Throwing me back into the seat and then it moves slowly to 130 mph, tops. Now, all of you can tell me that I need to build the bottom end of this Motor, today, now?

I believe that the noises that I experience today, that I am eliminating one at a time successfully, I might add, will not beat me and if they do and all of you were correct, I will have to apologize. I am not afraid to build this Motor, I have the tools and the experience. I would use a Machine shop, where needed, because they have the tools that I don't have.

I tell you this Engine is a monster and I still carry extra weight in the trunk due to the posi-traction W/ four-wheel Disc Brakes.

By the way, when we removed the Cam # 886, years after we flushed the Motor with the ATF, the Cam Bearings did not have sufficient ware on them to be replaced and that is what I base the lower end on today, Crank Bearings, being as well of course. The Cam Bearing in the middle, had one light scratch in it, taken out with light scuff pad. So, we installed the new "041" Cam using the existing Cam Bearings.

FYI- Rebuilt heads do not need "breaking in", there are no parts that need mated together like cam/lifters or rings or bearings.

Can you clarify the timeline of when you installed the new johnson lifters? Based on what youve posted and lost deep in the paragraphs, it looks like you installed the new lifters on the old "worn out" 886 cam, hopefully you broke them into the cam properly... but more importantly you then mention installing the new 041 cam but no mention of new lifters, did you reuse the lifters you installed on the 886 cam?

Are you adjusting each rocker arm or just cranking the nut to 20lb/ft? Did you check the geometry or wear pattern on the valves? With the rebuilt heads and other new valve train parts, teh factory 20/lb/ft may not be whats needed.

Zinc in oil is a combo of zinc/phosphorus, called ZDDP, it is an anti wear additive along with many other additives that are only in engine oil, not ATF, & they are VERY important for high wear areas like cam/lifters, even a few minutes without those additives in the oil, will cause major wear between those surfaces... 30 minutes without any engine oil would be terrible for cam/lifter surfaces & other internals... surprised nobody else mentions that. Thats great you think the bearings were OK visibly, did you measure the clearances of the cam, rod, crank bearings? or just look at them?

Still waiting for a video of the engine noises so we can actually hear whats going on.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

FYI- Rebuilt heads do not need "breaking in", there are no parts that need mated together like cam/lifters or rings or bearings.

Can you clarify the timeline of when you installed the new Johnson lifters? Based on what you've posted and lost deep in the paragraphs, it looks like you installed the new lifters on the old "worn out" 886 cam, hopefully you broke them into the cam properly... but more importantly you then mention installing the new 041 cam but no mention of new lifters, did you reuse the lifters you installed on the 886 Cam?

Are you adjusting each rocker arm or just cranking the nut to 20lb/ft? Did you check the geometry or wear pattern on the valves? With the rebuilt heads and other new valve train parts, the factory 20/lb/ft may not be what's needed.

Zinc in oil is a combo of zinc/phosphorus, called ZDDP, it is an anti-wear additive along with many other additives that are only in engine oil, not ATF, & they are VERY important for high wear areas like cam/lifters, even a few minutes without those additives in the oil, will cause major wear between those surfaces... 30 minutes without any engine oil would be terrible for cam/lifter surfaces & other internals... surprised nobody else mentions that. Thats great you think the bearings were OK visibly, did you measure the clearances of the cam, rod, crank bearings? or just look at them?

Still waiting for a video of the engine noises so we can actually hear what's going on.

Mikes reply:

The Heads need testing to see what improvements they make.

In short, over the first 4 years we replaced the oil pump first, Splash shields under the valve covers next, rebuilt the Carbs. , bought new Copper tires, already came with the Timing chain and Gears. As we tested at high speeds, for a stock unknown Engine, we had to replace a few of the Push Rods over that time and we discovered as we serviced other problems concurrently, that a nut was cracked on one of the Rocker arm studs, between cyl. # 1-3 and that the cam, in some places, on the lobes, was worn beyond recognition. The Cam as well was wiped out. How I obtained these high speeds is beyond me. These Pontiac Engines must be very tough.

After the first four years, going by memory, I am not looking back either, we installed the "041" Cam along with the Johnson Lifters, as a new set to mate them together. Butler Performance had us change the screw in studs to a beefier HD 7/16" version with the new nuts and a washer to lash the Rocker arms. They gave us a procedure to follow and we followed it too the letter. At that time, we also installed HD push rods, but we did not degree in the Cam until recently.

We drove and tested and tuned and made many repairs along the way, we went 7000 miles approx. when we went over the root that damaged the Trans. The Vehicle sat for two years or more and we repaired the Trans in that time frame. Then we bought a more adjustable Timing Gear that we did not need, installed that and advanced the Cam and then put it back to zero advance. Then we bought the degree wheel and ended up trying different settings, until we reached the conclusion that no advance is best for this mostly stock Engine. That brings us to today's new issues. This is not the same Motor it was ten years ago.

Since we did not install Roller type Rockers, we used the Push Rods that Butler sent for the project, there would "not" be a problem causing us to measure the push rods with the tool for that.

We added ZDDP on each oil change and I use Lucas oil treatment in both my Vehicles, Van as well. When we installed the "041" Cam we used MOLY Lube on the Lobes and Cam Bearings. I HOPE THIS BRINGS YOU UP TO DATE.



You ask:

Thats great you think the bearings were OK visibly, did you measure the clearances of the Cam, Rod, Crank bearings? or just look at them?

We saw that the Cam Bearings had the outer surface material and deduced that they could be used again and so we did, The Cam however was not.

Yes, we measured the clearances of the Cam, Rod, Crank bearings, the info. is posted in this Thread, look at the attachment area please.

I am not talking about "Amsoil VS ATF" and I wish you would drop the query over it.

KEEP IN MIND, I NEVER TOLD PEOPLE TO RUN THEIR MOTORS WITH ATF, ONLY THAT A WISE OLD TRANSMISSION MECHANIC, RAN HIS OWN PERSONAL VEHICLE WITH ATF AND GOT 300,000 MILES, WITH REGULAR FLUID CHANGES. I DO NOT ENDORCE WHAT HE DID. FOR ALL I KNOW OTHERS MAY HAVE SEEN THOSE MILES SIMPLY CHANGING THEIR OIL EVERY 3000 MILES?

Even if people use Deisel fluid, mixed with Trans. fluid to flush an Engine, is that written in any Service Manual? I am curious, I have not seen it in my research, however, I have listened to other Mechanics that use it. Marvel Mystery oil cleans the top of pistons, cleans Carbs. when mixed in the gas, etc... all from other people, BLA, BLA, BLA ...

You said this:

"Zinc in oil is a combo of zinc/phosphorus, called ZDDP, it is an anti-wear additive along with many other additives that are only in engine oil, not ATF, & they are VERY important for high wear areas like cam/lifters, even a few minutes without those additives in the oil, will cause major wear between those surfaces... 30 minutes without any engine oil would be terrible for cam/lifter surfaces & other internals... surprised nobody else mentions that. Thats great you think the bearings were OK visibly, did you measure the clearances of the cam, rod, crank bearings? or just look at them?"

Mikes reply:

Unless you do the test like the Trans. Mechanic, that proved his milage to himself, how could you know if it works or not. I say try it or prove it won't work on your own Vehicle, otherwise this is a mute argument, agree to disagree please, nobody cares, the topic is worn out, let's move on...WE ALL UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT.

We have the Oil pan removed and we will be taking pictures of the lower end today while we inspect the Windage Tray and inner dip stick tube for looseness. Meanwhile the parts are on their way like the Flexplate and hardware associated with it.

You said:

Still waiting for a video of the engine noises so we can actually hear what's going on.

Mikes reply:

Soon, but I am praying the noise is gone by then, after I install these new parts, OfCourse! If the noise is gone, I will still post a sound audio clip for the forum. Mike out.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Mikes reply:

The Heads need testing to see what improvements they make.

OK, That is not breaking them in... correct words & terms make a big difference.

In short, over the first 4 years we replaced the oil pump first, Splash shields under the valve covers next, rebuilt the Carbs. , bought new Copper tires, already came with the Timing chain and Gears. As we tested at high speeds, for a stock unknown Engine, we had to replace a few of the Push Rods over that time and we discovered as we serviced other problems concurrently, that a nut was cracked on one of the Rocker arm studs, between cyl. # 1-3 and that the cam, in some places, on the lobes, was worn beyond recognition. The Cam as well was wiped out. How I obtained these high speeds is beyond me. These Pontiac Engines must be very tough.

Didnt ask or need to know about oil pump, splash shields or tires etc etc...

After the first four years, going by memory, I am not looking back either, we installed the "041" Cam along with the Johnson Lifters, as a new set to mate them together. Butler Performance had us change the screw in studs to a beefier HD 7/16" version with the new nuts and a washer to lash the Rocker arms. They gave us a procedure to follow and we followed it too the letter. At that time, we also installed HD push rods, but we did not degree in the Cam until recently.

You stated and I quoted that you put new johnson lifters on the old 886 cam, thats all I was trying to clarify.

We drove and tested and tuned and made many repairs along the way, we went 7000 miles approx. when we went over the root that damaged the Trans. The Vehicle sat for two years or more and we repaired the Trans in that time frame. Then we bought a more adjustable Timing Gear that we did not need, installed that and advanced the Cam and then put it back to zero advance. Then we bought the degree wheel and ended up trying different settings, until we reached the conclusion that no advance is best for this mostly stock Engine. That brings us to today's new issues. This is not the same Motor it was ten years ago.

Since we did not install Roller type Rockers, we used the Push Rods that Butler sent for the project, there would "not" be a problem causing us to measure the push rods with the tool for that.

Didnt ask about push rods, was just curious if you are adjusting the rockers like an SBC/BBC as most do with new cams & rebuilt parts, or just tightening the nut to 20lb/ft as per pontiac factory procedure.

We added ZDDP on each oil change and I use Lucas oil treatment in both my Vehicles, Van as well. When we installed the "041" Cam we used MOLY Lube on the Lobes and Cam Bearings. I HOPE THIS BRINGS YOU UP TO DATE.

Was just explaining how "zink" works in motor oil that you asked to be enlightened on...

You ask:

Thats great you think the bearings were OK visibly, did you measure the clearances of the Cam, Rod, Crank bearings? or just look at them?

We saw that the Cam Bearings had the outer surface material and deduced that they could be used again and so we did, The Cam however was not.

Yes, we measured the clearances of the Cam, Rod, Crank bearings, the info. is posted in this Thread, look at the attachment area please.

Not going back through all the pages, myself & others have lost track of most things posted in this thread. Thats great if you actually removed main/rod caps & properly measured for clearances, hope they were all within spec

I am not talking about "Amsoil VS ATF" and I wish you would drop the query over it.

I havent mentioned amsoil vs ATF besides one link to show some facts on the subject, many other companies say the same things but you seem to think all of that is "ridiculous" for some reason

KEEP IN MIND, I NEVER TOLD PEOPLE TO RUN THEIR MOTORS WITH ATF, ONLY THAT A WISE OLD TRANSMISSION MECHANIC, RAN HIS OWN PERSONAL VEHICLE WITH ATF AND GOT 300,000 MILES, WITH REGULAR FLUID CHANGES. I DO NOT ENDORCE WHAT HE DID. FOR ALL I KNOW OTHERS MAY HAVE SEEN THOSE MILES SIMPLY CHANGING THEIR OIL EVERY 3000 MILES?

Wise??

Even if people use Deisel fluid, mixed with Trans. fluid to flush an Engine, is that written in any Service Manual? I am curious, I have not seen it in my research, however, I have listened to other Mechanics that use it. Marvel Mystery oil cleans the top of pistons, cleans Carbs. when mixed in the gas, etc... all from other people, BLA, BLA, BLA ...

You said this:

"Zinc in oil is a combo of zinc/phosphorus, called ZDDP, it is an anti-wear additive along with many other additives that are only in engine oil, not ATF, & they are VERY important for high wear areas like cam/lifters, even a few minutes without those additives in the oil, will cause major wear between those surfaces... 30 minutes without any engine oil would be terrible for cam/lifter surfaces & other internals... surprised nobody else mentions that. Thats great you think the bearings were OK visibly, did you measure the clearances of the cam, rod, crank bearings? or just look at them?"

Mikes reply:

Unless you do the test like the Trans. Mechanic, that proved his milage to himself, how could you know if it works or not. I say try it or prove it won't work on your own Vehicle, otherwise this is a mute argument, agree to disagree please, nobody cares, the topic is worn out, let's move on...WE ALL UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT.

We have the Oil pan removed and we will be taking pictures of the lower end today while we inspect the Windage Tray and inner dip stick tube for looseness. Meanwhile the parts are on their way like the Flexplate and hardware associated with it.

You said:

Still waiting for a video of the engine noises so we can actually hear what's going on.

Mikes reply:

Soon, but I am praying the noise is gone by then, after I install these new parts, OfCourse! If the noise is gone, I will still post a sound audio clip for the forum. Mike out.

A quick vid on a cell phone would be better showing the general area where the noise is coming from instead of a blind audio clip. Hope the new uncracked flexplate fixes the mystery noise.