[67Lemons]

In the old days it was always wise to stick with the same manufacturer for the cam & lifters. In recent years though because of quality concerns, overseas manufacturing & repeated failures the common accepted practice is to purchase a US made lifter like the Johnson’s & then pair it with the cam of your choosing. Makes sense to me since the common logic is that all HFT or SFT cams use the same cam blanks from the same supplier. Also commonly it is mentioned that most if not all of these cams are from the same grinder so the name on the box doesn’t matter, aka the same quality no matter who.

All this makes sense to me because I’m actually in the parts business as a manufacturer rep for automotive & commercial vehicle parts. Where this goes a little sideways for me is that there is also a group of folks on this board & others who say go with Crower since they have a the cam saver lifters & there are very few if any failures typically reported. Two points on this logic is that are their lifters made in the US, are there cams the same as say the Melling version?

Maybe Crower grinds their own cams? Possible but not sure, maybe they only accept a certain percentage of cams from the original grinder, like the top 10% or something? We do know guys like Bullet, Comp Cams, etc grind their own but now everyone is mostly doing HR. Who knows but all this can be confusing so I’m throwing it out there for discussion.

[64speed]

My Crower cam and cam saver lifters had a rocky start. 4000 miles later it seems ok.

[Jay S]

I hate to rain on the parade but Crower has failures like everyone else. Their camsaver lifters are not immune to issues either. The worst ground cam I have ever seen came from Crower. I think there is a photo of it someplace on this forum. You have to check and inspect Crower’s stuff just like everyone else’s. I have a Crower HFT cam we did that has almost 30K miles on it now.

Over the weekend I got a message from a local car with a 455 that had a Comp RA4 cam and HLJ lifters that wiped the cam during the break in. Didn’t even make it 15 minutes….UGH!

[67Lemons]

Originally Posted by Jay S

I hate to rain on the parade but Crower has failures like everyone else. Their camsaver lifters are not immune to issues either. The worst ground cam I have ever seen came from Crower. I think there is a photo of it someplace on this forum. You have to check and inspect Crower’s stuff just like everyone else’s. I have a Crower HFT cam we did that has almost 30K miles on it now.

Over the weekend I got a message from a local car with a 455 that had a Comp RA4 cam and HLJ lifters that wiped the cam during the break in. Didn’t even make it 15 minutes….UGH!

I mentioned Crower only because there seems to be a consensus that they have LESS failures but I think the point is that somehow by matching the same cam & lifter mfr there’s hopefully similar crown on the lifter designed for the crown or concave (?) surface of the cam adding to a higher likelihood of success, at least in the old days that’s how it was presented.

[ponchjoe]

Question in regards to all manufacturers. What are they doing to improve the issues and what warranty do they have/honor?

[64speed]

I don’t think any brand is immune. I have just had good luck so far compared to the comps I had fail in a SBC (HFT) and the rollers I had fail in my first engine (Morel/Lunati)

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by 67Lemons

I mentioned Crower only because there seems to be a consensus that they have LESS failures but I think the point is that somehow by matching the same cam & lifter mfr there’s hopefully similar crown on the lifter designed for the crown or concave (?) surface of the cam adding to a higher likelihood of success, at least in the old days that’s how it was presented.

Crower flat tappet cams often do not have as much intensity as other cams, that helps the failure rates at least some versus some other cams. The Crower cam I did that has about 30K miles on it was a 60919 like 64speed has, but that cam with 30k miles has Rhoad’s Vpro lifters with the lube option (lifters are made by Hylift Johnson). That was not a matched cam and lifter set. There are only a few companies that make lifters, companies often switch suppliers if one lifter supplier runs out of supply. So often times you really are not getting the same brand lifter as the cam anyway. At one time Johnson sold lifters to nearly all the mfg’s, they did not change the lifters face machining for each specific company, at least not unless it is something unusual requiring a different cam tapper. Mopar 440 six pack had less taper and different lifters, so do some older Fords.

More or less it is wishful thinking these days hoping the match lifter set with the same brand cam and lifters will be better. On some cam and lifter sets the lifters included with the kit are cheaper to make the kit competitively priced, you usually get what you pay for.

[OG68]

I ordered a Crower HFT cam (60242) from Jegs with Cam Saver lifters.
Upon receipt of the cam I looked it over carefully and found a very small hole in a lobe.
I took it down to Crower which conveniently is just a few miles across town from me. They didn't like it either and ground a replacement for me within two days. They have a very large machine shop and it was quite interesting to watch the cam grinding process.

[67Lemons]

Originally Posted by OG68

I ordered a Crower HFT cam (60242) from Jegs with Cam Saver lifters.
Upon receipt of the cam I looked it over carefully and found a very small hole in a lobe.
I took it down to Crower which conveniently is just a few miles across town from me. They didn't like it either and ground a replacement for me within two days. They have a very large machine shop and it was quite interesting to watch the cam grinding process.

So is it safe to say that Crower grinds their own cams then? Say that their RAIV 60919 cam isn’t the same as the Melling SPC-8? Interesting if so.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by 67Lemons

So is it safe to say that Crower grinds their own cams then? Say that their RAIV 60919 cam isn’t the same as the Melling SPC-8? Interesting if so.

The current 60919 is not the same as a Melling SPC-8. The only thing the same is the lift, and the .050” durations. Seat timing and LSA are different, lobes are different designs. I have done both.

[Formulas]

Not saying cam / lifters are the issue or not..... but when iam planning out engine build details the heads get ALOT of attention early on namely how much lift is desired and how much lift is possible

with the top of guides cut down for PC seals with a reasonable step to locate shims i cut the top of the guides down more to only have enough room accept a PC seal as low as possible+ a small extra margin... then insert intended valve / keepers / retainer using a weak spring that i got from my old damaged landscape pop up sprinkler heads ... see and record how much max travel there is then measure my seals protrusion over top of guide then do the math to come up with max valve travel before crunch then + a little safety margin then figure installed height of valve springs and go from there ..

thorough planning and alterations is the only way you will achieve KNOW max acceptable lift

a D'port head has to be massaged some to take .540-.560ish lift unless longer valves are used or more aggressive machining is done

store bought heads everything should be checked and verified or just plan to operate well under published data

food for thought like most ignition problems are blamed on the carb.

[mgarblik]

Not sure if this will help explain but this is what I know and my understanding of the subject and I think reasonably accurate. All the cam companies people seem to talk about on this forum grind cams. Crower, Comp Cams, Isky, Bullet/.Ultradyne, Howards,LSM, Clay Smith, and dozens of others. Most have CNC cam grinders but are not often used on flat tappet stuff and low production legacy stuff like our Pontiacs. Most of our old, flat tappet stuff is still ground on ancient manual cam grinding machines, some dating back to the days our ancient engines were new. Not necessarily a bad thing at all as long as the masters, and the machinery are maintained and in good shape and operated by people who know how to grind cams! (Old Guys). Very few aftermarket cam companies make their own cam blanks and they would be billet blanks not flat tappet stuff that is cast. LSM makes some billet blanks and Comp makes some. May be a few others. Everyone has to source cast blanks for flat tappet cams and NONE ARE US MADE ANYMORE. They come from China or India, that's it. So if you have a new flat tappet cam ground it may be NOS and MAY be US made. But most likely Chinese or made in India and will have a much higher probability of being a piece of crap. To make matters worse, the majority of these smaller cam companies do not do their own heat treating in house. They send a pile of Cams out for heat treating in a batch to a vendor they trust. But the quality of the heat treatment is hit or miss as well.

So here you are as an end user, or an engine builder, stuck right in the middle of this pissing contest between the core supplier in China/India, the cam grinder, the heat treating shop. A fresh engine full of metal paste from a flat cam and ruined lifters, an angry customer or engine owner and everyone else pointing fingers and blaming each other. It's a bad situation with no 100% solution.

Many say "Why not just go to a roller cam?" That would be a great solution IMO IF they didn't have a long list of their own problems with defective roller lifters. Will try to get the latest updates form ALL the cam grinders at PRI in a few weeks. Best place to get the latest, honest information IMO.

[Formulas]

Old NOS camshafts are not a bad thing to pursue, just getting harder to find
last one i picked up is a old General Kinetics SFT

[OG68]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Most of our old, flat tappet stuff is still ground on ancient manual cam grinding machines, some dating back to the days our ancient engines were new. Not necessarily a bad thing at all as long as the masters, and the machinery are maintained and in good shape and operated by people who know how to grind cams! (Old Guys). .

I saw a few grey haired Old Guys at Crower cutting the cams.

[Steve C.]

Not necessarily related, but might be of interest. Includes a few shots inside Crower.

Regrinding a Camshaft - Behind the Scenes @ Crower Cams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-tLEzZn_4o


.

[Jay S]

Melling cams and other white box grinds that are ground by CMC get ground in very exotic CNC machines that grinds the cam in a few minutes with stunning accuracy. The down side is they do so many cams in a day, QC isn’t the best, especially when it comes to cam core issues. Other than that, just like what Mike said, most every flat tappet cam is ground on the manual Berco type machines, they have more variation. I think Comp may grind some flat tappet cams on CNC grinders.

Those guys at Crower need to drink an extra cup of coffee before the fire up their grinders …. The flat tappets from Crower seem to vary in how they are ground pretty wildly. Part of why I said you need to check cams out and Crower is no different. I have seen the 60919 come out looking like a single pattern cam, I have seen them mess up the LSA and it measured 116. The worst was the cam that had an extra 18* of exhaust seat timing on it. All on what is suppose to be the same cam. I like Crower, but they need to move that cam grinder that does those cams out of that dark corner of the shop!

[67Lemons]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Melling cams and other white box grinds that are ground by CMC get ground in very exotic CNC machines that grinds the cam in a few minutes with stunning accuracy. The down side is they do so many cams in a day, QC isn’t the best, especially when it comes to cam core issues. Other than that, just like what Mike said, most every flat tappet cam is ground on the manual Berco type machines, they have more variation. I think Comp may grind some flat tappet cams on CNC grinders.

Those guys at Crower need to drink an extra cup of coffee before the fire up their grinders …. The flat tappets from Crower seem to vary in how they are ground pretty wildly. Part of why I said you need to check cams out and Crower is no different. I have seen the 60919 come out looking like a single pattern cam, I have seen them mess up the LSA and it measured 116. The worst was the cam that had an extra 18* of exhaust seat timing on it. All on what is suppose to be the same cam. I like Crower, but they need to move that cam grinder that does those cams out of that dark corner of the shop!

Really disappointing to hear that! I’ve only heard good things about their grinds

[grivera]

Originally Posted by OG68

I ordered a Crower HFT cam (60242) from Jegs with Cam Saver lifters.
Upon receipt of the cam I looked it over carefully and found a very small hole in a lobe.
I took it down to Crower which conveniently is just a few miles across town from me. They didn't like it either and ground a replacement for me within two days. They have a very large machine shop and it was quite interesting to watch the cam grinding process.

Damn shame that Crower’s quality control inspection was absent on that cam - kudos to you for finding the hole!

[Rar_421]

Pretty sure crower doesn't make their own lifter's,but buying them else where and machining them and selling them as camsaver lifter's,I had read where they used hy-lift Johnson's in the past

[67Lemons]

Originally Posted by Rar_421

Pretty sure crower doesn't make their own lifter's,but buying them else where and machining them and selling them as camsaver lifter's,I had read where they used hy-lift Johnson's in the past

I’ve read the same in the past but no idea if that’s still true today.