[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I'd be curious just to see another Jan or Feb body date 70 TA

Paul's brother has a 600-800 range 70 TA
That one could be informative via body date and the invoice data.

hint hint Paul K

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

I'd be curious just to see another Jan or Feb body date 70 TA

Paul's brother has a 600-800 range 70 TA
That one could be informative via body date and the invoice data.

hint hint Paul K

I have a request in for that information. Unfortunately it will be a while. I talked to one gentleman that knew of a mid December build.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

All of it is interesting to me .
I'm not from Missouri , but I have to see the oddballers .

Just to note , we can't totally judge a 70 TA by its VIN
They only built 3196 , but the VINs don't run from 100001 to 103196.
Was just looking at an 03A TA and it's VIN is N107375
And 03A has always been considered ultra early for 70 TA
I'm just sticking with Norwood cars for this investigation - I know Van Nuys built some also.

The wildest thing besides the body dates on these two 01A cars ,
other than their body dates ,
Is they are sequential VIN - AND - same options / colors.

But that doesn't make them TA #354 and #355 out of 3196 - or out of however many TA's were built in Norwood. fwiw

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I think the VIN sequence clicked up for every V8 Bird produced .
And it just hit where it landed on any given model or series.

Not sure if that is exactly right , it's more hear-say , they-say .
Seymore or Rocky might know though.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

@Johnta1
Could you help us again and post the 2 invoices for that 70 Ram4 TA display car that went to Coney Island or some place like that ? Still no access to my files yet , big handicap.
Trim tag too if you happen to have it also.

Give us something to compare against when Paul gets his PHS .
Hopefully his is Multi-Invoice and gets lucky with both copies.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

I think the VIN sequence clicked up for every V8 Bird produced .
And it just hit where it landed on any given model or series.

Not sure if that is exactly right , it's more hear-say , they-say .
Seymore or Rocky might know though.

Yes - this is correct.

K

[johnta1]

post the 2 invoices for that 70 Ram4 TA display car that went to Coney Island or some place like that

Not sure these are the ones? I didn't have a reference to Coney Island.


2 PHS' for a 70 (SD) RAIV TA though, from zone 991 and one for Scutti Pontiac.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Thanks John .
Yes that's the one.

Something about the backstory was it was displayed at Coney Island boardwalk ,
Or some boardwalk type venue up in NY/NJ area .... hell I can't keep all of them straight anymore without my files.

Now I remember that some of the cars that went out from satellite plants for events got billed out to that corresponding zone like a regular zone car (991 - 992 etc)

The exit billing to Scutti is 997 though.
Like the exit billing on 01A #355 is 997 .

If they hadn't been used (as say a normal zone inventory)
The exit billing would stay 991 , 992 etc variety .

Believe only the cars from Motherland PMD factory had the Marketing/Display/Show Car Pool type designators on their #1 Invoices. iirc now

[RLEngland]

Here's the PHS for N100942. Build date 01C. So the 997 means internal use? Meaning the dealer held onto it for awhile as a promotion car? Must have sold to a Sailor or Marine at Annapolis, MD and they brought it to San Diego. It spent most of it's life here in SD with my friend.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by RLEngland

Here's the PHS for N100942. Build date 01C. So the 997 means internal use? Meaning the dealer held onto it for awhile as a promotion car?.

I think we are getting into uncharted waters now.

Notice that your car #942 is colored/optioned identical to car #355 - 01A
Paul K says his car #354 - 01A is also identical colors/options.
They are beginning to resemble the first-fruit "Pattern Judge" scenario of Jan/Feb 1969
3 ultra early cars all built the same way.
Equipped - not stripped .

Your invoice of March 16 is when Marbert Motors got the car.
Paul's warranty plan shows his sold on March 14

997 historically has been the exit billing code for cars that had seen some type of use.
Most common use for suffix code 997 overall.

991 , 992 , 993 have been the common exit billing codes for cars that were stored inventory at various zone storage lots.
Un-Used / New .
The 1969 Pattern Judges that were stored at zone lots until the planned release in early Feb -
those all used the 991 992 993 ......

Car #942 has the same discount code 30 in lower left ledger,
and .00 HoldBack is another indicator of discounted vehicle.
But it doesn't spell it out like #355 invoice.

Also check out the similarity of the order numbers on them
01004 & 03004
69 Pattern Judges had coded order numbers also , not typical generic order numbers.

There may end up being more to this story if we get more invoices on these Jan built cars.
It is eyebrow raising / suspicious

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Paul K - are you getting the PHS Invoice for your car #354 - 01A ?

[RLEngland]

I'll be dang. Surprised I didn't see this before. I think Baron just coined a new term "1970 Pattern T/As". N100891 and N101130 has the same options as well. Dealer order on N110942 is 01004. It's 08004 on N101130.

[RLEngland]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

All of it is interesting to me .
I'm not from Missouri , but I have to see the oddballers .

Just to note , we can't totally judge a 70 TA by its VIN
They only built 3196 , but the VINs don't run from 100001 to 103196.
Was just looking at an 03A TA and it's VIN is N107375
And 03A has always been considered ultra early for 70 TA
I'm just sticking with Norwood cars for this investigation - I know Van Nuys built some also.

The wildest thing besides the body dates on these two 01A cars ,
other than their body dates ,
Is they are sequential VIN - AND - same options / colors.

But that doesn't make them TA #354 and #355 out of 3196 - or out of however many TA's were built in Norwood. fwiw

I'd like to know if the VIN sequence clicked up at each plant (Van Nuys and Norwood) separately, or if they were assigned to each plant in batches. I've got 380 VINs documented from both plants and none have the same last 6 digits. Anyone every see the same last 6 digits on a Van Nuys and Norwood car for the model year 1970? I'm from Missouri.

[johnta1]

The 2 plants have their own VIN sequence. Could/would be a L100001 and a N100001.
The VIN's are also for all the Birds at that plant, not just TA or Formula or whatever. One could be a plain Bird next one a TA then plain Bird or Formula or whatever.
2 in sequence together would be OK I'd think, but a lot in sequence would be problematic, I'd think?
A lot of 'stuff' to build one right after the other and another etc?
(takes longer time to do all at once, slowing line down)

PS. I think I have some but not sure what year?
May take awhile to find them.

[RLEngland]

Originally Posted by johnta1

The 2 plants have their own VIN sequence. Could/would be a L100001 and a N100001.
The VIN's are also for all the Birds at that plant, not just TA or Formula or whatever. One could be a plain Bird next one a TA then plain Bird or Formula or whatever.
2 in sequence together would be OK I'd think, but a lot in sequence would be problematic, I'd think?
A lot of 'stuff' to build one right after the other and another etc?
(takes longer time to do all at once, slowing line down)

PS. I think I have some but not sure what year?
May take awhile to find them.

That makes sense. If I had money to burn, I would submit two of the same VINs to PHS and see what I get back. I'd like to hang out with them for a week looking at the files. John, thanks for what you do. I really enjoy your website.

[johnta1]

Glad you like my site!

So the 997 means internal use? Meaning the dealer held onto it for awhile as a promotion car?

Usually a Zone type area or some specific use.
It would also mean their would be another PHS for it. The earlier one to this PHS. That one may have what the 997 was.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by RLEngland

That makes sense. If I had money to burn, I would submit two of the same VINs to PHS and see what I get back.

I've done this (accidentally).

I was researching a GTO VIN 237375P115814 and it came back as "not a GTO".

After some time I realized that PHS mistakenly sent me the packet for 237375Z115814. Fremont vs Pontiac final assembly.

Took me about a year to figure out what was wrong, and why none of the option content made sense.

I contacted PHS and they made it right, without additional cost.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by RLEngland

I need to go hang out with the PHS folks and find a duplicate.

Originally Posted by RLEngland

I'd like to hang out with them for a week looking at the files.

There's not a lot to see.

Just going through punch cards: one, by one, by one, by one, by one....

And - they are filed in INVOICE order, not VIN order. Recall these were financial documents originally (not saved as a boon to future historians).

K

(this was a couple locations ago, when they were in Sterling Heights. Might look different now).

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by johnta1

The 2 plants have their own VIN sequence. Could/would be a L100001 and a N100001.
The VIN's are also for all the Birds at that plant, not just TA or Formula or whatever. One could be a plain Bird next one a TA then plain Bird or Formula or whatever.
2 in sequence together would be OK I'd think, but a lot in sequence would be problematic, I'd think?
A lot of 'stuff' to build one right after the other and another etc?
(takes longer time to do all at once, slowing line down)

This is correct.

a) - yes - there is a L100001 and a N100001. Similarly there would be a L123456 and a N123456, counting up independently at each plant to end of production.

b) - You are correct about option content. Great care is taken to make sure you don't have too many high content vehicles in row and overload the downstream assembly line workers. As such I would be surprised to see two T/As in a row, but it could happen, albeit not often. Or maybe four speed followed by an auto, for example. Or T top followed by no T top.

But you have to be careful. If it brings attention to itself the guys WILL start counting, and WILL write up a shop grievance.

K