[Jay S]

Originally Posted by charlie66

So you think i should go with the johnsons if there not oiled axles?

I am ok with not having axle oiling. But it is a nice feature. Johnson have it on other platforms. Could be they have it for a Pontiac and I am not aware of it.

There is also a Hylift Johnson lifter that would work with your combo it is HLJ-A-2375SE. They are all USA made with ultra slow precise metering and have pin oiling. But the cost is around $1100. Their down side is they have a very low oil band and on Pontiac’s the power noses over after 6000 when the cam has an aggressive intensity. The Johnson’s PR and ST will make power past 6000 with an aggressive cam.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Jay S

I am ok with not having axle oiling. But it is a nice feature. Johnson have it on other platforms. Could be they have it for a Pontiac and I am not aware of it.

There is also a Hylift Johnson lifter that would work with your combo it is HLJ-A-2375SE. They are all USA made with ultra slow precise metering and have pin oiling. But the cost is around $1100. Their down side is they have a very low oil band and on Pontiac’s the power noses over after 6000 when the cam has an aggressive intensity. The Johnson’s PR and ST will make power past 6000 with an aggressive cam.

You're saying my cam is aggressive, do I have to worry about breaking a lifter bore with this cam?

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by charlie66

You're saying my cam is aggressive, do I have to worry about breaking a lifter bore with this cam?

The possiblity of a lifter bore breaking is not an issue from the cam itself. If something goes wrong on a lifter that is when there is a risk of breaking a lifter bore.

For your cam the average duration it takes the tappet to go form .006” tappet lift to .050” tappet lift is 51*. The smaller that number, the more acceleration and the quicker the lifter starts to move. This is fine, but the lifter has to have a sharp enough bleed rate or it will tick or make extra sowing machine noise. This cam must have the plunger of the lifter bore lockup up by .005” tappet.

This cam is pretty aggressive because the plunger on the lifter does not have much time to recover for the next cycle before it need to open the valve again... The lift isn’t aggessive at all, but the intensity is. A less aggressive cam like a Comp Extreme energy marine HR with 55* of average intensity the lifter has to lock up by .009” tappet to operate quietly, giving the lifter plunger more time to recover and lock up for then next cycle. That is a big difference.

If the lifter can’t lock up the plunger by those points, it has the same effect of running a Mechanical cam with excessive lash. It increase the acceration on the valve terrain and is hard on stuff.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Jay S

The possiblity of a lifter bore breaking is not an issue from the cam itself. If something goes wrong on a lifter that is when there is a risk of breaking a lifter bore.

For your cam the average duration it takes the tappet to go form .006” tappet lift to .050” tappet lift is 51*. The smaller that number, the more acceleration and the quicker the lifter starts to move. This is fine, but the lifter has to have a sharp enough bleed rate or it will tick or make extra sowing machine noise. This cam must have the plunger of the lifter bore lockup up by .005” tappet.

This cam is pretty aggressive because the plunger on the lifter does not have much time to recover for the next cycle before it need to open the valve again... The lift isn’t aggessive at all, but the intensity is. A less aggressive cam like a Comp Extreme energy marine HR with 55* of average intensity the lifter has to lock up by .009” tappet to operate quietly, giving the lifter plunger more time to recover and lock up for then next cycle. That is a big difference.

If the lifter can’t lock up the plunger by those points, it has the same effect of running a Mechanical cam with excessive lash. It increase the acceration on the valve terrain and is hard on stuff.

Man, I hope I didn't make a big mistake buying this cam. I thought I knew what I was doing. So, the Jonsons will be able to handle this aggressive lobe ok without worries you're saying? I'm wondering if I need a less aggressive cam now.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Man, I hope I didn't make a big mistake buying this cam. I thought I knew what I was doing. So, the Jonsons will be able to handle this aggressive lobe ok without worries you're saying? I'm wondering if I need a less aggressive cam now.

The Johnon 2112OPR will handle that cam, and should be as quiet as any other option. The ST2112OPR will also, but the I don’t think a short travel is needed.

I have never done a set of the Johnson ST’s. I should not have blanket compared the Morel ST to a Johnson ST. What I have seen with Morel ST’s is one goes 30K miles on the street, and the next might break a link bar or loose and axle at 4K. A cam with 53* intensity is my max intensity I will use a regular Morel (which covers Lunati, Bullet, and Howard’s, plus some others.. all are made by Morel). My go to cam company is Bullet cams, and that is my connection to Morel, that is their in house lifter brand. They are a tough lifter, but have a rep for making a lot of noise.. Morels went 100K miles with no visible wear on a spinatron with .650” lift back when they were original tested. The only upgrade they have received is they went to float axles a few years ago, which is a good deal. But as cams have became more and more aggressive (which is an industry trend), noise complaints have gotten worse and worse with the Morel. I tend to not use them anymore. I only set up 1 Morel last year, it was a 53* with beehives.


The Evolutions will handle this cam also. If you by chance end up with a set that has a ticker,I’d just replace that lifter and move on, or look to see if it has debre in the valving. That applies to any lifter from any brand.


Hylift Johnson “SE” can handle this cam easy too, but $$$$. Bullet sells this lifter along side the Morels, and is highly regarded by at Bullet. Most people can’t get past the price, they don’t stock them anymore.

[Formulajones]

That's just it, people need to look past the price
My case in point. The evo's were $700 and the Johnson's are $1000. $300 is nothing in my eyes when your talking about $10,000 engines. But I tried them because of the reviews and I wanted to see for myself before I go using them in someone else's engine. Now i know

As of right now I'm not interested in replacing a cartridge for one that bleeds down, in fact I pulled the covers and rotated the engine by hand and can't narrow down a culprit, none of the plungers moved. Yet I fired it up and one ticks for a second or two.

Now buying the Johnson's I should have in the first place. The $300 difference would have saved me money because now I guarantee I'll be buying another set of $150 pushrods as I doubt the Johnson's are the same height, more gaskets, fluids, and my time will more than surpass the price difference .

Something people really should keep in mind when fixated on prices. Trying to save a few bucks doesn't always equate to savings when things go south

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

That's just it, people need to look past the price
My case in point. The evo's were $700 and the Johnson's are $1000. $300 is nothing in my eyes when your talking about $10,000 engines. But I tried them because of the reviews and I wanted to see for myself before I go using them in someone else's engine. Now i know

As of right now I'm not interested in replacing a cartridge for one that bleeds down, in fact I pulled the covers and rotated the engine by hand and can't narrow down a culprit, none of the plungers moved. Yet I fired it up and one ticks for a second or two.

Now buying the Johnson's I should have in the first place. The $300 difference would have saved me money because now I guarantee I'll be buying another set of $150 pushrods as I doubt the Johnson's are the same height, more gaskets, fluids, and my time will more than surpass the price difference .

Something people really should keep in mind when fixated on prices. Trying to save a few bucks doesn't always equate to savings when things go south

What do you think about the other 3 versions of Johnsons that butler sells compared to the ones you're talking about? Are they not as good of a lifter? I don't understand why the Hy-lifts were made where they won't rev past 6000rpms where the other ones will. I know the band is lower, but does that make them better and more money. I don't care about the cost either. I'm just trying to understand why.

[grivera]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

That's just it, people need to look past the price
My case in point. The evo's were $700 and the Johnson's are $1000. $300 is nothing in my eyes when your talking about $10,000 engines. But I tried them because of the reviews and I wanted to see for myself before I go using them in someone else's engine. Now i know

I thought you mentioned before the Johnsons were in the $1500 range? maybe that was a different Johnson?

[scott70]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

That's just it, people need to look past the price
My case in point. The evo's were $700 and the Johnson's are $1000. $300 is nothing in my eyes when your talking about $10,000 engines. But I tried them because of the reviews and I wanted to see for myself before I go using them in someone else's engine. Now i know

As of right now I'm not interested in replacing a cartridge for one that bleeds down, in fact I pulled the covers and rotated the engine by hand and can't narrow down a culprit, none of the plungers moved. Yet I fired it up and one ticks for a second or two.

Now buying the Johnson's I should have in the first place. The $300 difference would have saved me money because now I guarantee I'll be buying another set of $150 pushrods as I doubt the Johnson's are the same height, more gaskets, fluids, and my time will more than surpass the price difference .

Something people really should keep in mind when fixated on prices. Trying to save a few bucks doesn't always equate to savings when things go south

I went with the evo’s cause what I was hearing was people liked them. You think that lifter is hit or miss?

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Man, I hope I didn't make a big mistake buying this cam. I thought I knew what I was doing. So, the Jonsons will be able to handle this aggressive lobe ok without worries you're saying? I'm wondering if I need a less aggressive cam now.

On a less aggressive cam I would have suggested solid rollers and not looked back. I have 3 cars set up that way.

The HLJ’s can rev well past 6, they just quit making power and loose valve control with aggressive cams like your cam just past 6. Johnson’s have slightly better valving and similar leak down rates, and seem to rev a bit higher with the same set up. I have HLJ’s on a couple of my engines and shift at 6k. They are done at 6k, and have rev limiters at 6, so what happens after that really doesn’t matter.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Jay S

On a less aggressive cam I would have suggested solid rollers and not looked back. I have 3 cars set up that way.

The HLJ’s can rev well past 6, they just quit making power and loose valve control with aggressive cams like your cam just past 6. Johnson’s have slightly better valving and similar leak down rates, and seem to rev a bit higher with the same set up. I have HLJ’s on a couple of my engines and shift at 6k. They are done at 6k, and have rev limiters at 6, so what happens after that really doesn’t matter.

I'm sorry for being so redundant about this but I'm trying to take it all in. I have zero experience with hydraulic lifters. So, what would be the difference if I used the Short Travel JLI-ST2112OPR-16 to the Hy-Lift HLJ-A-2375SE lifter? What I think I'm understanding so far is one will rpm higher where the other will fall off at 6000rpm but will have pin oiling? with the oil band being lower is that better or worse reliability wise? I thought they all were Johnson made. From what I see Butler sells 4 different lifters made by Johnson? I know I'm dragging this but I'm real close on buying a set so if you can just bear with me on this . Lol

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by charlie66

I'm sorry for being so redundant about this but I'm trying to take it all in. I have zero experience with hydraulic lifters. So, what would be the difference if I used the Short Travel JLI-ST2112OPR-16 to the Hy-Lift HLJ-A-2375SE lifter? What I think I'm understanding so far is one will rpm higher where the other will fall off at 6000rpm but will have pin oiling? with the oil band being lower is that better or worse reliability wise? I thought they all were Johnson made. From what I see Butler sells 4 different lifters made by Johnson? I know I'm dragging this but I'm real close on buying a set so if you can just bear with me on this . Lol

It’s no problem. I enjoy cams and valve terrain stuff. Johnson, Taylor, MI and Topline Hylift Johnson, in Muskegon MI, are 2 different companies. Both are spin offs from the original Johnson company that went bankrupt years ago and both claim to be the original Johnson.

Your cam does not have a lot of lobe lift, the oil band position is not going to be a factor on either option.

Johnson, in Taylor Michigan, is USA made and make the 21120PR and the ST21120PR, they also make a full travel lifter for stock applications. it’s part number is just 21120. The ST2112OPR is as close and you can get to acting like a mechanical lifter. The limited travel 2112OPR are a little bit of a compromise, and are what I would do of those options. But Johnson may say other wise. Your cam probably does not have enough spring pressure to make a difference in lifter life on a ST. But the 21120PR won’t be much different and easier to set. Neither one has pin oiling as far as I know.

The Topline Hylift Johnson A- 2375SE is also USA made, and at the moment, they are the only USA made HR lifter for a Pontiac with pin oiling. In their testing the short travel lifter had up to 70% shorter life. So they do not offer a short travel. Instead they offer a “S” slow bleed. The down side is if the valve terrain has any sort of bad harmonics the lifter follows it and quickly looses control of the valves. If you know what you’re doing, like Jone’s 327, you can rev that lifter very very high. On a Pontiac with a cam like yours, with a typical dual spring they more or less clock out at just past 6000. You can over spring them, but then the valving can’t compensate and they still clock out at the nearly same RPM point. You can overcome those things with stuff like beehive springs and setting spring up close to coil bind. Your cam won’t make great power past 6K anyway. For a long life cruising lifter this lifter it is hard to beat with a rev limiter ceiling. . The tolerance are tight a generally needs 10w30 oil.

[Jay S]

Bulter carries the HLJ “SE”, the end of the description helps describe the limit on RPM’s with them.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-3164...tegory:1234800

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Bulter carries the HLJ “SE”, the end of the description helps describe the limit on RPM’s with them.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-3164...tegory:1234800

I ran the set in our 327 to 7300 rpm where we finally saw what appeared to be valve train control going away. It made peak power from 6700-7000

That engine has 145 on the seats for that bullet cam, titanium retainers etc .. so it's not a heavy valvetrain.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I ran the set in our 327 to 7300 rpm where we finally saw what appeared to be valve train control going away. It made peak power from 6700-7000

That engine has 145 on the seats for that bullet cam, titanium retainers etc .. so it's not a heavy valvetrain.

Bullet cam for the win