[nitrousdave]

has anyone installed a ford toploader 4 speed behind a pontiac? i am looking to install a toploader 4 speed, because they are stronger than any muncie, i have the scattershield fot the pontiac and it is drilled for a toploader. what other modifications do i need to do to make this work, car is a 75 formula.

[Brian Baker]

Pontiac did it themselves for a brief period, sometime around '66 or '67 I believe, when Muncie could not keep up with the demand. There's probably some people on this board with a GTO with a factory installed top-loader.

[Tom McQueen]

I put a Hemi 4 speed in my 70 GTO several years back. Used a standard Pontiac Lakewood, re-drilled for the Chrysler trans bolt pattern. In addition to that, you will need to make sure the front bearing retainer registers properly in the GM bellhousing and will work with a GM T/O bearing. Lastly, the input shaft needs to be the correct length with a GM pilot bearing on the end. Use the correct disc for the trans and a GM pressure plate and T/O bearing. Crossmember/trans mount is simple, and a custom speedo cable will get you hooked up there. A custom shifter mount will go a long way toward putting that where it needs to be, and shift rods are easy to make.

[Colin]

Im pretty sure the input shaft on the trans will need some modification. Dont recall what exactly. I looked into doing the same thing myself and someone told me what you had to do to the shaft but its been a while and I do not remember.

[Mr. P-Body]

The "dual pattern" bellhousings wre made for the "Dearborn" 3-speed manual. The '65s were spitting Saginaw 3-speeds out in no time in GTOs, so Pontiac went across town to Ford for their "better" 3-speed. It was a "top loader" in the literal sense. I don't believe there were any of the top loader 4-speeds installed in GTOs.

While we always consider the top loader an excellent transmission, whether or not it's "better" than a Muncie can spark a massive debate. Myth and superstition not withstanding, none of the top loaders were ever put behind a 500 lb.ft. engine unless they were the "big" one (1 1/4" input shaft vs. 1 1/16"). Many a Muncie died a horrible death because of all the torque they had to endure. Apples-to-donuts comparison. Top loader IS a good transmission. So is Muncie.

Another common complaint among Ford guys, was how much "nicer" the Muncie would shift, compared to their TL. In a couple of Mustangs and at least one Torino, we put a diaphragm clutch in place of the "Long Style" pressure plate, and the shifts cleaned right up. It was the clutch, NOT the synchros, as many believed. Those old Ford clutches left much to be desired. Somewhere in the mid '70s, Ford began using diaphragms.

FWIW

Jim

[Dragncar]

I installed a small block top loader in my 69 GTO.You are going to turn down the Ford input shaft housing to the correct dia for a GM throw out bearing.Then get a Pontiac pilot bushing,not a bearing and turn it up to the Ford pilot shaft dia.Use a Ford 11" disc and Pontiac pressure plate and throw out bearing.
I used a Tras-Dapt adapter plate and a Lakewood blow proof.I also modified the Ford Hurst shifter lever to come up in the stock GTO console.The Ford Mustang Hurst shifter/linkage all fit.You are going to have to modify the Pontiac crossmember to the Ford tranny.
I still have all the stuff,it worked great.Our 66 Catalina Wagon had a top loader 3 speed from the factory.So those belhousings exist.
Looking at my GTO the only way you could tell it was not a Muncie is the Pontiac Hurst shifter lever was round and the Ford shifter was more flat.

[v869tr6]

My 68 Firebird came with a 3 speed Dearborn behind the 2 barrel 350. I know this trans survived a ton of abuse.

[pagesk]

The output shaft twisted, the yoke jammed, and the ujoint broke. Made a big bang shifting to second.

[RAIV55]

If going to a toploader use the big shaft version. The 1 1/16 input and 28 spline output will be the weak links. The rest of the tranny is amazingly tough.

Jim I'm surprised shift quality picked up getting away from a long style PP. They generate the most air gap of the three types. Wonder if it wasn't due to the waved marcel in the discs?

[Mr. P-Body]

Based on the wear patterns we've seen on flywheels, the Long-style doesn't apply or release pressure in a uniform manner across the disc. The bolt spacing seems to be similar to the wear. While the gap is good, it simply isn't as "crisp" in disengaging or engaging. Going to the diaphragm helped immensely, by reducing pedal effort, making the cutch linkage work more quickly. I don't think I ever put a Borg & Beck style cover in a Ford.

Jim