[dirkdiggler]

i got a shell that had the roof cut off and im going to scrap should i pull the tags? it has clean title and docs

[robz]

Not a very popular subject, to most Pontiac enthusiasts...I'd let it RIP...

[codyyy]

I wonder at what point it would be illegal? Perhaps cut out the entire firewall and then scrap the rest? Do you have paperwork for the shell or no?

[dirkdiggler]

paper work? i have clean title, both tags, phs docs

[webfoot]

Swapping tags IS illegal.

[Ron Landis]

Originally Posted by codyyy

I wonder at what point it would be illegal? Perhaps cut out the entire firewall and then scrap the rest? Do you have paperwork for the shell or no?

strange as it seems...many a car have been "restored" by replacing everything but the cowl...which seems to satify the folks that vehemently abhore tag swapping. I guess if you fully disclose how and what was replaced...you could clear your concience. By law...a car that is considered totalled by industry standard or State standards...not collectoer or restorer standards...that is to say heavily damaged beyond reasonable repair relative to Blue Book prices...actually requires a salvage title in many states. I'll bet all you "tag swich" police adhere to those laws...right? I know of a RA IV '69 GTO that was purchased as a $150 parts car and had most of the sheet metal gone. Ohio law requires a salvage title for such a car demanding that amount of repair. This one does not have one...that's a fact. I'm certain there are more.Only protecting the consumer. A 'Vette that should have had a salvage title but didn't was involved in a crash killing the teenage driver. Parents successfully sued! Lot's of double standards and hypocrites in this debate. Now...Dynacorn sells complete bodies or cowls...which require removing the tags. Anyone dipping a car must also remove the tags. As I ststed before...lawes were meant to prosecute thieves...not cripple a hobby. JMHO.

[codyyy]

Originally Posted by Ron Landis-formerly Jegstek

strange as it seems...many a car have been "restored" by replacing everything but the cowl...which seems to satify the folks that vehemently abhore tag swapping. I guess if you fully disclose how and what was replaced...you could clear your concience. By law...a car that is considered totalled by industry standard or State standards...not collectoer or restorer standards...that is to say heavily damaged beyond reasonable repair relative to Blue Book prices...actually requires a salvage title in many states. I'll bet all you "tag swich" police adhere to those laws...right? I know of a RA IV '69 GTO that was purchased as a $150 parts car and had most of the sheet metal gone. Ohio law requires a salvage title for such a car demanding that amount of repair. This one does not have one...that's a fact. I'm certain there are more.Only protecting the consumer. A 'Vette that should have had a salvage title but didn't was involved in a crash killing the teenage driver. Parents successfully sued! Lot's of double standards and hypocrites in this debate. Now...Dynacorn sells complete bodies or cowls...which require removing the tags. Anyone dipping a car must also remove the tags. As I ststed before...lawes were meant to prosecute thieves...not cripple a hobby. JMHO.

Yeah I've heard of that stuff before. I'm not trying to start a debate but just wondering how much of this car can be used legally. He does have all the paper work and I'm assuming it is clean, the car probably wasn't crashed, just parked and rotted away. Classic cars are hard to work with as far as that stuff goes.

[performerrpm]

f you drill out the rivets and re attach to another car its jailtime obviously, but people cut just about everything lose from the firewall at somepoint when their rebuilding and re attach new sheetmetal and call it good, the only difference i can see in removing the firewall with the doorjamb attached from a car is just instead of removing several pieces your only removing one. also from what iam told there is a bit of grey area in the law about vin removal and cutting the firewall off for whatever reason kinda slips thrue the cracks. think about it this way, say the car you have was a tempest parts car for gto and you needed some firewall piece to fix the gto's but wanted to get the clutter away so you just cut the firewall and door jamb area and set to the side nobody even yourself would probaly ever question whether or not it was legal or not, change the story around tho where the gtos the parts car and everyone claims how immoral that is to have even removed the firewall.


id never steal someones car or want anything to do with a stolen car with a vin swap but if having a gto title was important to me and i had gto body in horrible shape and my lemans was at the point that it is right now id never think twice bout swapping firewalls and i wouldnt be sweating jail time for doing it if i were swapping a good portion of floor pan firewall and doorjamb and rocker panel id say its no different than guys replacing ever panel except the firewall.



all the guys complaining about whats legal and illegal, i guess they never went 50 in a 45 or had a couple beers 3 blocks from their house and drove home or forgot to use their signal at an intersection. the fines/jail time maybee less in each case but none the less the law was broken.



cut the firewall out put it to the side, someone will buy it just as soon as they think nobody is lookin

[MescaBug]

Now...Dynacorn sells complete bodies or cowls...which require removing the tags.

Good point. There is a difference between swapping tags for a project, and buying or selling them on eBay. For example, cloning a LeMans with GTO tags and advertise it as a real GTO.

Like said above, I wouldn't sweat a drop swapping tags between a rotten shell and a good car with no title. Or using my own tags on a Dynacorn shell. As long as both the cars and tags are yours.

[PaulatFast]

If you are scrapping the body, why not pull the tags and hang on to them?

[68gtoMN]

Or cut the section of the cowl out where both are attached if the firewall is too far gone...

[dirkdiggler]

yes thats what i planned to do is just hold on to them i dont even have a hard top shell just convertibles. but if they were convert tags i would swap but... no use but just in case i do come across a shell i have some

[69Customs]

In Ohio if you swap an engine, tranny, rear end or frame by law you are suppose to get a salvage title! How many do that!

[dirkdiggler]

well my uncle's best friend has a few goats 1 from arizona and 1 is a judge but it has some minor rust issues but if i help him fix one up he will give me the judge shell but he is going to keep his tags and fire wall and give me the rest of the judge for a price so i might need them

[codyyy]

Why would he take the tags off a Judge shell, especially if it has only minor rust issues?

[webfoot]

Originally Posted by codyyy

Why would he take the tags off a Judge shell, especially if it has only minor rust issues?

To make a non-judge car into a judge, why else?

[codyyy]

Originally Posted by webfoot

To make a non-judge car into a judge, why else?

Yeah, but that makes no sense. The guy said the Judge shell only has minor rust issues. I don't see why you would take the tags off a perfectly good shell unless you were going to put them on say, a restored Tempest that's ready to go. Even then I don't understand it because in order for it to pass off as an actual Judge, you'd need just about everything that distinguishes it. People will scratch their heads if you have Lemans grilles or a 350 or non-Judge colors or decals on a real Judge car.

[69goatboy]

Originally Posted by 69Customs

In Ohio if you swap an engine, tranny, rear end or frame by law you are suppose to get a salvage title! How many do that!

Really?

Sh1t!



By that logic, about 75% of the classic cars out there should have salvage titles.

[dirkdiggler]

he is going to swap it all over to a rust free shell this shell is from Arizona the car is super clean perfect interior and perfect body no filler even still has paint that's nice the judge has rust issues by the package shelf and a few other places. so why bother restoring when you can bolt on? with out all the stuff its just a orange shell right? and im going to take all the parts from my old goat and a lemans and a custom s and make me another car. besides i see nothing wrong with it in all reality whats the sense of cutting up a great shell to put the parts on one that needs quite a bit of work? i dont know about you guys but i have other things to do like, race, work have sex with my wife and enjoy my kids. than be stuck cut and welding for a 2 years and spending money i dont have right now

[north]

I believe the legal element only enters the game in a practical sense when there is criminal intent; Stealing a nice car then swapping in salvage tags to conceal the true identity of the stolen car or inversely doing a body swap on a high value car and telling a buyer that the car is an original virgin.

Besides where is the line drawn? is using a LeMans bodyshell to restore a Judge OK? Is using all kinds of repro and used body panels etc any different?

Personally if I had the choice of having a RA IV Judge that;

1...had had its rotten and/or accidented body replaced with a leMans bodyshell
or
2...the original body with new quarters, trunklid, trunk pan, wheel tubs, floorpans, cowl, doors and fenders etc being a mixmash of repro and used stuff all patched and welded together

I would take the former in a heartbeat. a rotted car all welded back together is a rotted car welded all back together. At the end of the day neither will ever be a virgin car so the question is how to best restore it, I'd rather have a factory built body (even if it's the "wrong" one) as compared to a homemade hodgepodge of rotten factory steel, bondo, Taiwan tin and scrapyard bits and pieces.

just my 2 cents! Besides I prefer to have nice original cars where the value is in the original condition instead of being in the desirability. (i.e. a minty LeMans instead of a rebodied Judge.)