Then and Now

[Tripower455]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
you have the advangate because you can build your 455 for a strip only car. i gotta compromise when i make my 69 a street/strip car. no big converter,cam,rear gears, hell the cam i bought for it is a 226/230 duration with .510 lift (all the springs can handle) which is smaller then a RAIV cam. i was advised that would be about as big as i would want to go for a street motor with a stock converter (for now). ill take the 425-450 hp and be happy with it. or since im getting rods/pistons for it im considering putting a stroker kit in it. but then again it has to be streetable. it doesnt get the best mileage as it is and i imagine with the stroker kit id be lucky to get 5mpg. or i could keep my 6X4 heads and get them worked over and find a 6 or 8-71 to put on top. but would that be streetable? or build it up for some spray. but i dont want to do that either. you see the point im trying to make? it has to be streetable. in the back of jim hands book theres a 428 combo very simmilar to mine thats runing high 11's. theres a few cars around (4 or 5 that ive seen at least) where i live that could hang with that if not beat it. there will always be something faster. for a street/strip car id settle for low 12's/high 11's. if i ever consider getting rid of my 69 i think how lucky i am (at 22) to have this car. not a lot of people my age or older have owned one. by the way what does my 69 have to do with the 04? ill tell my big brother ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My '66 will be very streetable (MPG in the teens) and fast. It's all in how you build it.

Overdrive is your friend if you want both.

[Tripower455]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:

so these are wrong ? tell them the LS1 isnt a chevy smallblock and have them redo all their work and see what they tell you.

http://hpbooks.carshopinc.com/produc...2f84627c67f01e

http://www.detroitspeed.com/LS1Book10.html <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those are GM books? Uh, think not.


Hey Don, learn how to resize some pictures ok? jeeezzzz <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


do you have jim hands new book? i assume you do. i also assume he knows his sh**. but wait its not a "GM book". not just anyone can write a book. it helps if they know what theyre talking about. cmon man get off the whole GM kick and back on the short bus. its almost as bad as you saying "its a pontiac because pontiac says so" when i asked you what part of the car was a pontiac. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My '04 says Pontiac on it? It's not a Pontiac? Is my '66 a Pontiac, since it also says Pontiac on it. So did my Formula, Grand Prixs, etc...... Were they Pontiacs? Now I'm almost as confused as you are!

[Tripower455]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> what would you want to share with the new GTO ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whatever.......

[3 Deuce 64]

except for the )$ GTO

[Brew]

i am 6'2" and can keep my head in a more upright position in the backseat of the Mustang go figure, I know what the advertised specs say I sat in and drove both so please do not think my comments are because I like the Ford better they are an unbiased comparison.

Ok, try this. Get in the drivers seat of the Mustang and adjust the seat so your comfortable. Then get out and try to get in the back seat. Then go to your nearest Pontiac dealer and do the same thing with the GTO. I'm 6'3", so I know the outcome.

BTW, other than the rear seat room, I agree with your post 100%. But, the lack of rear seat room in the Stang will prevent me from buying one, because our next car still has to be practical too. The 300C is looking more attractive every day, but I cant get past the pricing on those.

[CosmopurpleGTO]

AMEN!! Good - sensible anology!!

[Tripower455]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAIVJUDGE:
I have just read a lot of this thread and I must be bored to have done so. I am a die hard Pontiac guy (GTO's, Judges, Trans Ams) Mr-GTO and others stop trying to convince yourselves that the new GTO has a Pontiac engine. It may be a corporate block but it is more Chevy then any other brand. No Cadillac V-8 comments either please. And secondly the new GTO handles great, runs great but it looks like a Grand Am on Steriods simple as that. You have to look twice at one to realize it is a GTO on the street. Someone at GM dropped the ball on this car and it is a shame. Ford is going to kick some butt with their new designs. I was going to buy a new 05 GTO and decided not to . I am buying a new GT Mustang and with the 4,000 I am saving I am investing in a Paxton underhood blower kit (3,500) which will give me 450HP. See ya later GTO. I predict the new GTO will cease production in 06 and they will bring back the Camaro to compete with the Stang.


Here's the quote from GM's website regarding the LS-1
"GM's family of LS1 overhead-valve V-8 engines can trace its roots to the fabled Chevrolet small-block V-8, yet the LS1 is much more than an offshoot from the small-block family tree. The LS1 continues the small-block's longstanding virtues of compact size, simplicity, reliability and high specific output." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You do know that the Rustang doesn't have a Pontiac engine in it, don't you?

It may look good, but it is still a Ford.....

I'll take a fast, comfortable nice handling GTO over a slow, cramped, lousy handling Rustang any day of the week.........

[rabon008]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:

sorry im not into chevies. if i was id write a book too. its as simple as this example. chevy made the 350 since 1955. along the way they have made improvments (R&D is supposed to do that) they find the weak points and make them stronger. they make the strong points even stronger. thats why some factory heads flow better then others and factory part X is better then the same part Y ( cranks,cams...) thats why there was hp/torque diffrences between the same size engines in diffrent years. look at the L98,LT1,LT4,LS1,LS6,LS2. why is one better then the other ? this is the evolution of the small block. from 78/9 on pontiac couldnt make their own engines. what other Gm make was making engines? chevy? do you think GM would piss off pontiac fans who buy the t/a,firehawk,formula,whatever by saying its a chevy LS1? you know and i know they wouldnt its not a good marketing move. i dont need technical data to prove that. its called common sense. if you cant understand that i doubt you can understand technical data. what part of the car is pontiac AND pontiac only other then the badge ? why dont you answer that question first. nobody has yet and i doubt anybody ever will. hows that for technical data? besides that im not the one who says "show me a Gm site that says this or says that" and when i bring up a point that several books written about the CHEVY LS1 since its not a "GM book" then it doesnt mean anything to certin people. you say im the one who chooses what/whos writing is and isnt correct? what does that make Mr_GTO? i brought up the point that jim hands book isnt a "GM book" but yet he knows his sh** and people bought it,read it, and learned from it. oh by the way i dont know about you but when i think of pontiac i dont think of a 5.7L. i think of 389,400,421,428,455.

once again tell me what on this car is pontiac other then the badge. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are how old? Did I read 22 in another post? If so, then according to your definition of what a "real" Pontiac is, you have never driven a "real" Pontiac new from the dealer. The technical reasons as to why you claim the LS1 is a chevy are the only things that would be valid in this discussion. You can't make the LS1 into a chevy with technical arguments because you have none. Does Jim Hand's book (as you so like to praise) tell you how to turn an old 350 chevy into an LS1 by some few simple modifications? No, it does not. Why don't you call Jim Hand and ask him if the LS1 is a chevy engine and get his technical reasons that make it so? You seem incapable of coming up with them on your own. If he's got them written down in his book then why don't you qoute those technical reasons? You obviously don't want to learn anything for yourself and are just interested in spouting "chevy engine" - "chevy engine" - "chevy engine" - "chevy engine" until you have convinced yourself that you can't be wrong so there's no reason to look up the technical details of the engine.

Since you are obviously so hung up on the LS1 being inferior to vintage Pontiac engines JUST because it is a "chevy engine" (again its not) then I will give you another assignment. Tell us SPECIFICALLY what makes the vintage Pontiac engines superior to the LS1? Come on here's a task that an engine expert such as yourself ought to be able to handle. There has to be something (other than the friggin' color) that makes those vinatge Pontiacs put the modern LS1 to shame. Let's here your vast wisdom on this subject.

PS. Concerning the original debate regarding technical reasons that you think the LS1 is a "chevy engine" here's some incentive: For every truly technical reason that you give showing the LS1 is a "chevy engine" I will give you 2 points showing that the designers of the LS1 where heavily influenced by Pontiac engines (particulary from the 1950's).

[RandyW]

You guys are mixing your message here! Ford created exitement by 'introducing' a new T-Bird. When the car actually hit the showroom, it was ignored and quickly forgotten!
The car didn't generate exitement, the idea of the car did, big difference!

[red70goat]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Don Salisbury:
what should have been <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't be serious. I keep waiting to see if BatMan and Robin jump out of this. BTW: Does that front end double as a snow plow?

[RandyW]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Again Ford did this when they introduced the new T-Bird, which created tremendous excitement when it was released.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The T-Bird is so exiting, Ford announced it will be discontinued due lack of sales!

[red70goat]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Randy W:
You guys are mixing your message here! Ford created exitement by 'introducing' a new T-Bird. When the car actually hit the showroom, it was ignored and quickly forgotten!
The car didn't generate exitement, the idea of the car did, big difference! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think there was as much anticipation or demand for a new T-Bird as there was a GTO. When Ford came up with the idea of a new T-Bird a few people thought "Why not?" In relation to the GTO, for 30 years GM had been petitioned with "You Must!"....and they blew it.

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

youre right the EVO VIII or STI shouldnt be in the same league. but the point is that if you compare 1/4 mile times, 0-60 times, and skidpad results who is the winner? time for GM to wake up. oh by the way have you heared about the chevy coblat? its a little ugly POS 4 cylinder (import wanna be) with the echotech (spelling?) engine thats either turbo or supercharged i forgot which. it only runs mid/high 14's so not all torbo/supercharged 4 cylinders are fast. if i went that route id have a syclone or typhoon.

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

i heared that a hydraulic roller on the street is a bad idea ? i guess it dont matter if the springs i got can only handle .511 lift.

[Mr_GTO]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
i was told that if you put a roller cam in a street car its not as durable as a hyd cam. but when i look at a summit catalog with cams for a LT1/LS1 i scratch my head and wonder why i was told that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Simple. Bad info in, bad info out. Read all the magazines you can. Lots of good information in those.

[Goat luver]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ozzy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ozzy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by red70goat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ozzy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
Feel free to post a pic of that 70 GTO you claim to own.


Yeah, c'mon Mr "Whatza Moron" let's see your beloved Goat.

I asked for pics in a posting a few weeks ago......... still waiting! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, that's fair. I don't remember you asking for a pic, but I'll dust off the cover and give you a pic here shortly. It's nothing spectacular, bone stock and needs a good waxing and some armourall. Let me hit it with a buffer and some elbow grease and it'll be ready for a pic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Still waiting.......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Mr "Whatza 70 GTO" We are all still waiting...... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Still waiting "Mr.I don't really have a red70 goat"
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[red70goat]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Randy W:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I believe the key word there was "when" not now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


No! The key word was "exitement". The New Bird never sold close to Ford's original projection, in fact unlike the '04 GTO, the T-Bird sold less than half of expected volume! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How much did Ford discount it? Or did they? People expected a cute car when the T-Bird came out. Those that wanted a cute car bought one. There aren't that many people wanting a cute car these days. Lots of people still want musclecars. People expected an in-your-face GTO when the GM Monaro was released. Many are still waiting. Thus deeply discounted 04s and production #'s cut back on the 05.

[RAIVJUDGE]

I have just read a lot of this thread and I must be bored to have done so. I am a die hard Pontiac guy (GTO's, Judges, Trans Ams) Mr-GTO and others stop trying to convince yourselves that the new GTO has a Pontiac engine. It may be a corporate block but it is more Chevy then any other brand. No Cadillac V-8 comments either please. And secondly the new GTO handles great, runs great but it looks like a Grand Am on Steriods simple as that. You have to look twice at one to realize it is a GTO on the street. Someone at GM dropped the ball on this car and it is a shame. Ford is going to kick some butt with their new designs. I was going to buy a new 05 GTO and decided not to . I am buying a new GT Mustang and with the 4,000 I am saving I am investing in a Paxton underhood blower kit (3,500) which will give me 450HP. See ya later GTO. I predict the new GTO will cease production in 06 and they will bring back the Camaro to compete with the Stang.


Here's the quote from GM's website regarding the LS-1
"GM's family of LS1 overhead-valve V-8 engines can trace its roots to the fabled Chevrolet small-block V-8, yet the LS1 is much more than an offshoot from the small-block family tree. The LS1 continues the small-block's longstanding virtues of compact size, simplicity, reliability and high specific output."

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:

so these are wrong ? tell them the LS1 isnt a chevy smallblock and have them redo all their work and see what they tell you.

http://hpbooks.carshopinc.com/produc...2f84627c67f01e

http://www.detroitspeed.com/LS1Book10.html <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those are GM books? Uh, think not.


Hey Don, learn how to resize some pictures ok? jeeezzzz <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


do you have jim hands new book? i assume you do. i also assume he knows his sh**. but wait its not a "GM book". not just anyone can write a book. it helps if they know what theyre talking about. cmon man get off the whole GM kick and back on the short bus. its almost as bad as you saying "its a pontiac because pontiac says so" when i asked you what part of the car was a pontiac.

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pont3:
So based on that criteria, no Pontiacs have been made since 1981. We have been misled by GM for the last 24 years. That means the '79 Trans AM with the Olds 403 was not a Pontiac or the '79 Bonneville with the Olds 403 was not a Pontiac, or the '72 Ventura with the 307 Chevy was not a Pontiac and the etc, etc, etc.

This is absolutely amazing!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

good job you can read and understand simple sentances.