Then and Now - Page 16 - PY Online Forums

Tripower455 · #1 01-31-2005, 11:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>what is this middle school again ? "if you dont answer my question then thats admitting that...." Cmon man grow up a little. and where did i say that the LS1 isnt a good engine? other then the fact that my roomie blew a LS1 in a 98 SS (this was a new car at the time and he wasnt my roomie then) and got a 97 T/A with a LT1 (2 years old at the time) and we tried to blow it and we couldnt. id take a origional pontiac engine over either a LT1/LS1. you want to talk about weaseling out of a question you never answered my question about what part of a new GTslow is pontiac (that means is only found in a pontiac) besides the badges? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me get this straight. Because your friend blew up an LS1, and then didn't, even after trying, blow up an LT-1, you've deduced that a vintage Pontiac is better than an LS-1?

Is deductive reasoning a difficult subject for you? (rhetorical question, btw....)

Why don't you and your friend try to blow up a stock, vintage pontiac. I bet you are able to do it pretty easily. Why do you think it's so hard to find a GTO with it's original engine? I love the traditional Pontiac for what it is, but wouldn't even consider running one up to 6K on a regular basis in stock form.

I'd wager a substantial bet that the LS-1 will stand up to equal treatment a lot better than a stock '69 400 Pontiac of similar power.

BTW, have you run any new GTO's with your '69 GTslOw yet? I think you'll be dissapointed and want to sell it after doing so..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

do you knwo whats in my 69 ? no you dont. you act like the new gtslow is the fastest car on earth or something. trust me if my car wasnt in the body shop now and the streets were clear id run anything (it dosent have to be RWD or in the same price range). and im getting ready to take the motor out and get some rods/pistons so i can use the #16's on and run pump gas. come spring time i hope to be ready. you think the LS1 would hold up better ? maybe because a rev limiter/fuel shut off. isnt technology great? id hope it could hold up better. put a rev limiter and a fuel cut off on a old pontiac motor and it would be a whole new ballgame. i dont need to rev it up to 6k. remember my motor is a pontiac not a chevy so i dont have to play pin the needle on the tach to make power. with my current setup ill be out of power at 6-6,500 but imnot gonna take it up that high. i have no idea how old the internals are in this motor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think the new one is the fasstest thing on earth, but I'll bet it will beat your 6X headed 428! Maybe when you get the 16's it'll be a bit more of a race....

If you want to talk about engines that don't run yet, let's discuss my 455 which will kill your 428

Oh, and my dad can beat up yours

........

pont3 · #2 01-27-2005, 01:17 PM

Exactly! So until Pontiac decides to build an engine again, there will be no more Pontiac cars. [LOL]

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #3 01-23-2005, 12:31 AM

to make it short they could have done better with the 04's looks and performance. they did MUCH better with the 05. but if imports can hang with or beat it not only in the 1/4 but 0-60 and in the skidpad something has to happen. id be embarassed if i went to the track and lost to a stock import. that would make me wanna sell the car.

Tripower455 · #4 02-10-2005, 09:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
i was told that if you put a roller cam in a street car its not as durable as a hyd cam. but when i look at a summit catalog with cams for a LT1/LS1 i scratch my head and wonder why i was told that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only real durability issue was the distributor gear, since roller cams are made of billet steel, and would wear out the stock distributor gear. I got a Crane HR, which has an iron dist gear.

Mr_GTO · #5 01-24-2005, 04:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:

so these are wrong ? tell them the LS1 isnt a chevy smallblock and have them redo all their work and see what they tell you.

http://hpbooks.carshopinc.com/produc...2f84627c67f01e

http://www.detroitspeed.com/LS1Book10.html <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those are GM books? Uh, think not.

Hey Don, learn how to resize some pictures ok? jeeezzzz

pont3 · #6 01-27-2005, 08:33 AM

So based on that criteria, no Pontiacs have been made since 1981. We have been misled by GM for the last 24 years. That means the '79 Trans AM with the Olds 403 was not a Pontiac or the '79 Bonneville with the Olds 403 was not a Pontiac, or the '72 Ventura with the 307 Chevy was not a Pontiac and the etc, etc, etc.

This is absolutely amazing!!!

red70goat · #7 01-20-2005, 09:54 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by slice:
Strong performance from the '04-'05 GTO is very respectable - but is not enough to excite the public at large. Why? Because strong performance is commonplace today. Most new cars - even the mundane ones - can outperform many of the classic cars we so admire. Even if the new GTO is near the top of its class, it doesn't have the heritage styling cues that most people expect when the legendary GTO name is placed on the car.

Comparing the new GTO performance to that of the classic GTO is pointless. The classic GTO was a performance package with styling mods that was enough to distiguish the brand from the rest of the 1960s automotive landscape. You also can't ignore the marketing that took advantage of the youth oriented trends happening at the time. [note the parallel to the current tuner phenomenon for today's youth market].

Marketing a new muscle car today is a totally different animal. Strong performance is important, but it's also expected. Now, more is needed to ignite excitement around the brand. Styling is an important feature. The new GTOs are not un-attractive. They have clean shape, and carry-on the current Pontiac familial look. They don't however envoke any styling reminecient of the classic GTOs. There is a total disconnect from a styling perspective. Reaction from the automotive pundits and contributors to this forum lament this missed opportunity to leverage the GTO styling heritage to help make the new GTOs an unqualified success. Ford seems to have tapped into this formula with their new interpretation of the Mustang. There is no mistaking what it is.

Of course the new Mustangs, Corvettes [even Firebirds and Camaros until the end] have had the benefit of an un-interupted lineage to help with the evolution and brand identification. Even more reason that Pontiac needed to make more of an effort to help the buying public connect the dots when introducing a brand name with historic cache. Again Ford did this when they introduced the new T-Bird, which created tremendous excitement when it was released.

Now some will argue that Chrysler didn't really connect the styling dots with the new 300C compared to the vintage 300s. Its success seems to blow my arguement out of the water. While I agree they share little from a styling perspective, The vintage 300s are not nearly as well known to the public so there is much less expectation. Also the new 300C is daring in its own right - breaking new ground from a styling perspective, and sets its own trend. Also, Chrysler is cashing in on its "HEMI" heritage in a big way.

In that respect, I'd rather the GTO moniker be associated with a Pontiac that breaks new styling ground if it's not going to harken back to its heritage. How about a two-door G6 or Solstice with GTO performance... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto.....Well said. While many cars had stacked headlights, split grills, a "wide stance" etc, those characteristics were uniquely associated (bold print was for Champs sake) with the GTO. A modern day GTO with retro cues would serve to connect to that uniqueness rather than alienate it. Such a alienation only results in a commonality among the masses.

projectfolly · #8 01-21-2005, 05:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
you can read cant you? yeah go ahead and twist my words to try to make me look stupid and see what you get. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey,I just answered one of your questions. I twisted nothing. Or, are you trying to say that all your questions are rhetorical? Are you threating me personally now ?

GTO Bruin · #9 01-20-2005, 09:37 AM

Strong performance from the '04-'05 GTO is very respectable - but is not enough to excite the public at large. Why? Because strong performance is commonplace today. Most new cars - even the mundane ones - can outperform many of the classic cars we so admire. Even if the new GTO is near the top of its class, it doesn't have the heritage styling cues that most people expect when the legendary GTO name is placed on the car.

Comparing the new GTO performance to that of the classic GTO is pointless. The classic GTO was a performance package with styling mods that was enough to distiguish the brand from the rest of the 1960s automotive landscape. You also can't ignore the marketing that took advantage of the youth oriented trends happening at the time. [note the parallel to the current tuner phenomenon for today's youth market].

Marketing a new muscle car today is a totally different animal. Strong performance is important, but it's also expected. Now, more is needed to ignite excitement around the brand. Styling is an important feature. The new GTOs are not un-attractive. They have clean shape, and carry-on the current Pontiac familial look. They don't however envoke any styling reminecient of the classic GTOs. There is a total disconnect from a styling perspective. Reaction from the automotive pundits and contributors to this forum lament this missed opportunity to leverage the GTO styling heritage to help make the new GTOs an unqualified success. Ford seems to have tapped into this formula with their new interpretation of the Mustang. There is no mistaking what it is.

Of course the new Mustangs, Corvettes [even Firebirds and Camaros until the end] have had the benefit of an un-interupted lineage to help with the evolution and brand identification. Even more reason that Pontiac needed to make more of an effort to help the buying public connect the dots when introducing a brand name with historic cache. Again Ford did this when they introduced the new T-Bird, which created tremendous excitement when it was released.

Now some will argue that Chrysler didn't really connect the styling dots with the new 300C compared to the vintage 300s. Its success seems to blow my arguement out of the water. While I agree they share little from a styling perspective, The vintage 300s are not nearly as well known to the public so there is much less expectation. Also the new 300C is daring in its own right - breaking new ground from a styling perspective, and sets its own trend. Also, Chrysler is cashing in on its "HEMI" heritage in a big way.

In that respect, I'd rather the GTO moniker be associated with a Pontiac that breaks new styling ground if it's not going to harken back to its heritage. How about a two-door G6 or Solstice with GTO performance...

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #10 02-13-2005, 11:10 PM

dont get me wrong the new gto is a decent car. but i think that GM could have done better. its sad when imports in the same price range can hang with it. if gm is going to put more time and money into a cobalt that is a import wanna be then the GTO theres a problem.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #11 01-27-2005, 11:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
heres a formula for what makes a pontiac a pontiac.

pontiac engine + pontiac body + pontiac badge = pontiac (old GTO's)

chevy LS whatever (or any other engine that is made to "share" between makes/models) + australlian body + pontiac badge = NOT a pontiac (new GTO's)

just my opinion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, there hasn't been a Pontiac made since the Fiero? Wow....... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

in my opinion there hasnt been a pontiac made since 78/9. i dont want to knock you formula becuase i love that body style. and the L whatever engines were great engines in their times/currently. i could have bought a new t/a or firehwak but i decided on the 69 because to me its a real pontiac. sure it would be nice to have a modern car but i couldnt pick one over my 69.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #12 02-01-2005, 11:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
you have the advangate because you can build your 455 for a strip only car. i gotta compromise when i make my 69 a street/strip car. no big converter,cam,rear gears, hell the cam i bought for it is a 226/230 duration with .510 lift (all the springs can handle) which is smaller then a RAIV cam. i was advised that would be about as big as i would want to go for a street motor with a stock converter (for now). ill take the 425-450 hp and be happy with it. or since im getting rods/pistons for it im considering putting a stroker kit in it. but then again it has to be streetable. it doesnt get the best mileage as it is and i imagine with the stroker kit id be lucky to get 5mpg. or i could keep my 6X4 heads and get them worked over and find a 6 or 8-71 to put on top. but would that be streetable? or build it up for some spray. but i dont want to do that either. you see the point im trying to make? it has to be streetable. in the back of jim hands book theres a 428 combo very simmilar to mine thats runing high 11's. theres a few cars around (4 or 5 that ive seen at least) where i live that could hang with that if not beat it. there will always be something faster. for a street/strip car id settle for low 12's/high 11's. if i ever consider getting rid of my 69 i think how lucky i am (at 22) to have this car. not a lot of people my age or older have owned one. by the way what does my 69 have to do with the 04? ill tell my big brother

... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My '66 will be very streetable (MPG in the teens) and fast. It's all in how you build it.

Overdrive is your friend if you want both. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well good luck to ya. ill be happy if i can stuff 3.73 gears in it and manage to get 10+ mpg. i guess it would help if i stay out of the gas more. but it sounds too good when the secondaries open up.

Tripower455 · #13 01-27-2005, 01:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Don Salisbury:
Now you are catching on I have thought pretty much that was the picture Pontiac should be Pontiac Olds should be olds Buick should be buick and CHEVY SHOULD be Chevy <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, is my 2004 GTO a Pontiac?

If not, I better get over to the DMV and get the title changed!

If I put BBC rods in my 455, will it become a Chevy, since it will have more Chevy parts in it than the LS-1 at that point?

rabon008 · #14 01-30-2005, 12:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:

The fuel rail covers. The seats.

so those diffrences makes it a pontiac ?

What is your point?...

What car, can you go buy right now, that shares _anything_ with the new GTO (other than a Corvette)? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what would you want to share with the new GTO ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that Tripower455 has answered your question, why don't you get back to my original question, of which you tried so hard to weasel out? Why, in your expert opinion, is the LS1 inferior to a vintage Pontiac engine? Once again, we'll wait to hear your great technical wisdom on the subject of what makes those older Pontiacs so awesome and the LS1 so horrible. Don't try to weasel out of it this time. Just answer the question because, if you don't, then you will be admitting that the LS1 is better. Tell us EXACTLY why the LS1 is not.

3 Deuce 64 · #15 01-23-2005, 11:46 PM

what should have been

RandyW · #16 02-12-2005, 09:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> The new ones all look the same and I believe that a car with the GTO nameplate should be distinctive looking and you should not have to squint at one coming down the street and say is it a Grand Am, GrandPrix, G6 ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remember, everyone recognizes a VW Beetle for what it is right away also. When everybody and his brother have a Mustang like you, it won't be very distinctive, anymore.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #17 02-01-2005, 12:19 AM

you have the advangate because you can build your 455 for a strip only car. i gotta compromise when i make my 69 a street/strip car. no big converter,cam,rear gears, hell the cam i bought for it is a 226/230 duration with .510 lift (all the springs can handle) which is smaller then a RAIV cam. i was advised that would be about as big as i would want to go for a street motor with a stock converter (for now). ill take the 425-450 hp and be happy with it. or since im getting rods/pistons for it im considering putting a stroker kit in it. but then again it has to be streetable. it doesnt get the best mileage as it is and i imagine with the stroker kit id be lucky to get 5mpg. or i could keep my 6X4 heads and get them worked over and find a 6 or 8-71 to put on top. but would that be streetable? or build it up for some spray. but i dont want to do that either. you see the point im trying to make? it has to be streetable. in the back of jim hands book theres a 428 combo very simmilar to mine thats runing high 11's. theres a few cars around (4 or 5 that ive seen at least) where i live that could hang with that if not beat it. there will always be something faster. for a street/strip car id settle for low 12's/high 11's. if i ever consider getting rid of my 69 i think how lucky i am (at 22) to have this car. not a lot of people my age or older have owned one. by the way what does my 69 have to do with the 04? ill tell my big brother

...

RandyW · #18 01-31-2005, 04:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> So if Pontiac hadn't been shut down by corporate and forced to run the standard GM motor where would it have been today it was killing chevys back then and it most likely still would have been killing them but Pontica put the dear flag ship line in 2nd place so corporate killed PMD that's history and a fact the guys that worked there are still alive ask them I have a taped interview of J D and he said that on tape <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm a Pontiac fan, my brother's '68 400 H.O. Firebird with 3.90 gears once ran a 12.95 on 7" slicks! So a lot of what you say is true, but the fact remains, Pontiac and all the other V8's were eventually shut down in favor of corporate engines. That's just how it is, the old days aren't coming back.

Mr_GTO · #19 02-14-2005, 03:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
dont get me wrong the new gto is a decent car. but i think that GM could have done better. its sad when imports in the same price range can hang with it. if gm is going to put more time and money into a cobalt that is a import wanna be then the GTO theres a problem. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

would you please just shut up now. You don't have a clue, you've NEVER had a clue about anything you are talkinag bout. I know you are a young kid but damn boy go take a business class would you?

It isn't sad, it is the way of life these days. The old GTO wasn't ever all that fast compared to the Mopars or Buicks or the heavy duty Chevies, but today the Corvette then the GTO run the streets for GM. Other companies just stick high HP AWD systems in their cheap ass cars and they have winners. But I will tell you, Mitsubishi might not be around in 5 years and GM owns part of Subie, so be happy there is competition.

The cobalt is not in the same class as the GTO or Evo. THe sooner you learn that the better off you'll be.

Tripower455 · #20 01-31-2005, 12:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>what is this middle school again ? "if you dont answer my question then thats admitting that...." Cmon man grow up a little. and where did i say that the LS1 isnt a good engine? other then the fact that my roomie blew a LS1 in a 98 SS (this was a new car at the time and he wasnt my roomie then) and got a 97 T/A with a LT1 (2 years old at the time) and we tried to blow it and we couldnt. id take a origional pontiac engine over either a LT1/LS1. you want to talk about weaseling out of a question you never answered my question about what part of a new GTslow is pontiac (that means is only found in a pontiac) besides the badges? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me get this straight. Because your friend blew up an LS1, and then didn't, even after trying, blow up an LT-1, you've deduced that a vintage Pontiac is better than an LS-1?

Is deductive reasoning a difficult subject for you? (rhetorical question, btw....)

Why don't you and your friend try to blow up a stock, vintage pontiac. I bet you are able to do it pretty easily. Why do you think it's so hard to find a GTO with it's original engine? I love the traditional Pontiac for what it is, but wouldn't even consider running one up to 6K on a regular basis in stock form.

I'd wager a substantial bet that the LS-1 will stand up to equal treatment a lot better than a stock '69 400 Pontiac of similar power.

BTW, have you run any new GTO's with your '69 GTslOw yet? I think you'll be dissapointed and want to sell it after doing so.....