Then and Now - Page 6 - PY Online Forums

RandyW · #1 12-17-2004, 03:05 PM

AS I stated before, the only sbc parts that interchange with an ls engine, are the rod bearings! It is a total clean sheet design by the GM Powertrain Div. of General Motors. If that makes it a Chevy in someone's book, so be it!

Tripower455 · #2 12-18-2004, 01:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> can you tell me what car the origional LT1 was put into? a camaro. who makes the slowmaro? you should know that the LT1 evolved into the LS1 which evolved into the LS2.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The LT-1 went in the Vette first, and the LS-1 is no more an "evolution of the LT-1" than it is of any other SBC. The LT-1 is a completely different engine than the LS-1. The LT-1 was basically an evolution of the old iron block SBC with aluminum heads and a few other mods.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #3 01-18-2005, 01:50 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Randy W:
I guess that means those 4 bangers will outrun the old GTO's, too!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

a stock one yes.

carbking · #4 12-19-2004, 09:22 PM

Rabon - if you are going to use this line of evolution, then the LS1 must be derived from Cadillac which sold a 346 CID V-8 engine to the military in 1944....................FOR A TANK!

At least IT had a carburetor!

To take this further, Oakland had a V-8 346 CID in 1916; but they were not the first. I will leave the additional research on this family tree to whomever should be interested.

Oh, and the 347 was a Pontiac block, not a small block.

Jon.

red70goat · #5 01-19-2005, 05:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by TheWho:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TheWho:
Just the headlights and split grill is dinstinctive from the others. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps, but certainly not distinctive as a GTO. Mitsubishi and many others are now sporting a similar split grill.

Lynn Meyers Pontiac /GMC General Manager July 2002 M/T : " I'm not concerned about the styling of the new GTO. It has the powertrain to make it a modern day musclecar. This will fulfill the image of the GTO." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I still don't see the resemblance, I don't know why you guys keep making yourselves believe that it looks like a Grand Am or a Grand Prix, (QUOTE]

Because it does.
Bill Lovejoy GM Special Projects Manager Dec 2002 : " The GTO will represent what every Pontiac can and will be in the future". Why didn't he just say it will look like everything else they make but with more hp.

rabon008 · #6 12-25-2004, 11:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ozzy:
Rabon wrote:I compared the '04 GTO to the '02 WS6 in driving comfort and, even in that small two year span, there is a huge difference. The new GTO is a pleasure to drive, in every way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rabon, I totally agree with you. I traded in my 02 WS6 TA for the 04 goat. It was the best decision I ever made with regard to car choice.
The 04 GTO is way more comfortable, handles way better and out performs the TA in every way (in my experience).
I can take corners at way higher speeds than I could with the TA.
The 04 GTO is just superior and in a two year time span it's like "chalk and cheese"[/QUOTE]

I put many miles on a 2001 SS and know exactly what you are saying. At first, the driving comfort of my new GTO made me think twice about trying to take curves at the speeds I would have taken them in the SS or my Firebird. I soon learned that the driving comfort was not given to me at the sacrifice of handling.

To carbking: I have personally seen a '72 Chevelle get 21 mpg on a 500 mile trip. Nevertheless, my '04 GTO easily gets 25-26 mpg on the highway and 17-18 tooling around the city. Using the "instant fuel economy" digital readings from the info center it gets less when I really "get on the pedal".

Dragncar · #7 12-19-2004, 03:51 PM

Wow ,this is great.I thought I might "ramble" on a little more.Judging by the number of posts some of you guys have it is obvious that some of you spend too much time online and not enough time out in the garage.Do I think that 1980-2002 birds were "real" Pontiacs? Well No.(and I am not talking about the 80 turbo TA)The Camaro and the Firebird are built on the same platform.So the only real differance is the styling.They took the heart out of the car,the engine.Like I said,some people just do not get it and never will.But I will try and explain.If you get in one of those cars and turn the key and you do not hear a long rod high velocity intake port,gobs of mid range tourqe Pontiac,is the car a real Pontiac or something less.There are still some people at Pontiac who think so.Recently Pontiac took a late model bird over to the Butlers to do a clean installation of a updated traditional Pontiac engine.Why,you figure it out.And no I do not think Pontiac should have went to outside vendors to put a after market Pontiac engine in THAT car.It looks like a rice burner.But a real(traditional) Pontiac engine in GTO based on say the 95 Impala platform would have been very,very cool.But that would never happen so do not build it at all.The 04 GTO is a fraud.OK so onto this LS whatever stuff.Qustion???. If the sbc was never built,say it never existed.Would the LS1 be in existence.............well.....no.And that would make it what????A NEW MODERN DERIVATIVE OF THE SMALL BLOCK CHEVY V8.Clean sheat of paper or not.And the guy who wrote"So the Dodge is not running a Dodge motor but a Chryler Motor.The Pontiac runs a GM motor"Wow, how much do you know about Detroit cars and thier history.Chrysler,Dodge and Plymouth all ran the same famly of engines.They did not each have there own different engine designers and compete against each other as did Chevy,Olds,Buick,Cadalac and Pontiac.The General Motors inter divisional rivlry was great.And if people knew of all the motors,cars and projects that Pontiac wanted to build back in the day and what Chevy had to do with holding Pontiac back maybe more people would think like I do.Yea I know I am hard core but the idea of getting rid of our beloved engine and replacing it with the enemys makes me sick.Look I am sure it is a fine car and fun to drive and all that,but a real GTO.I do not think so.

RandyW · #8 01-10-2005, 10:59 AM

The Zeta platform GTO will be here by late '06, it will make all this bs moot!

Dragncar · #9 01-01-2005, 04:51 PM

Do not ever"comment ever again on any Pontiac model".Mr-GTO if I were to do that I would deprive myself the satisfaction of getting under the skin of all of you sellouts who think of the 04 as a real GTO.Thought about buying the SAE paper but all I had to do was pay attention to magazines,since I am a real Pontiac fan I usually bypass Chevy LS this LS that stuff and go right to the real Pontiac stuff.I pay attention now that I am on this thread talking to all of the sellouts.Found out all that I have to know.Looking at the exaust side of the head,It is a small block chebby.If the sbs was never invented the LS1 would not be in existence.That is a fact.LS1 is a fine motor with a lot of improvments but it is a chebby, and not a Pontiac.I took a look at the LSI in Popular Hot Roddings Engine Masters.They describe it as"Chevys LS1"."The gen 3 small-block is generally refered to as the LS1,primarily because that was its code when it was introduced in the 97 Corvette.""Just like any other small-block Chevy,you need to align the dot on the cam gear with the one on the crankshaft gear before removing the cam."All of these are quotes out the article.If any of you think the LS1 is anything other than GMs latest high tec wiz bang version of the venerable small block Chevy you are well ....stupid or ..ignorant or just a cool aid drinking take what is shoved down our throats wanabes.Here is what you 04 gto guys do.Take your cars down to the strip,it will be fun you know bang some gears burn some rubber.And complete the look of the rice burner with a 4 foot aluminum wing,slap a vertical row of gauges up in your left corner and do not forget the Nitto tires.Then go hang out with all of the Pontiac guys.See how your car is treated.Thing is some guys will not have a problem with it,might even think it is kind of cool.Some guys might not care one way or the other,take it or leave it.And then there are the hard core guys.They will hate on it,will not accept it.Some of the big dogs in the Pontiac word call the 04 a mistake,that is just the way it is.I am not one of them just a self addmited 04 gto hater.And I have not said anything realy inflammatory yet.

Mr_GTO · #10 01-09-2005, 02:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
I will be short and sweet today.The 04gto is not selling well because there are to many guys like me out there who see right through Pontiacs present day farce.It is ugly and does not deserve the name GTO.It has a Chevy motor and does not deserve the name GTO.It is just some car that GM slapped the name GTO all over it.A fine car but it does not matter how fine of a car it is if you have to become a giant fake and fraud to get there.Chevy guy friends of mine do not think of it as a real GTO.If it was I would be first in line to buy one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, what's the matter, don't like the facts presented to you?

Ok, answer me this. Why doesn't it deserve the GTO name? Looks is subjective. Many here think the GTO of old was great looking. Many on the mopar board don't think it was good looking. SUBJECTIVE.

So, again, reasons?

Uh, the GM engine thing again. Get used to it the old pontiac engine isn't coming back. I guess the 82-92 Firebird were not real cars since they actually had CHEVY engines. What about the 79 with the 403 Olds? Was that real? Or was it a Camaro?

Pontiac says it is a GTO and that is all that really matters.

Dragncar · #11 01-09-2005, 01:42 PM

I will be short and sweet today.The 04gto is not selling well because there are to many guys like me out there who see right through Pontiacs present day farce.It is ugly and does not deserve the name GTO.It has a Chevy motor and does not deserve the name GTO.It is just some car that GM slapped the name GTO all over it.A fine car but it does not matter how fine of a car it is if you have to become a giant fake and fraud to get there.Chevy guy friends of mine do not think of it as a real GTO.If it was I would be first in line to buy one.

rabon008 · #12 12-19-2004, 12:01 AM

dragncar wrote: The Pontiac motor has been gone for 25 years now.But a funny thing is happening out there.We now have more Pontiac parts now available than when the motor was in production.Why,some people thought the motor should have never been canceled,some people love them.We are about to have 3 different aftermarket blocks available and 6 or 7 different types of heads.Not to mention all of the new rods we can now chose from.

Interesting. Are all these parts (blocks, heads, rods, etc.) manufactured by Pontiac? I am just taking a wild guess here but I would think the answer is: No. If I'm correct, are you suggesting that GM should have contracted the construction of an aftermarket "Pontiac engine" and stuck that in the new GTO?

Really, GM wasn't about to put anything but their top of the line production engine into the GTO (even moving up to the LS2 in '05). I would think that the use of the LS1 and LS2 has pi$$ed off more "Corvette enthusiasts" than real Pontiac enthusiasts.

Once again, '04 GTO haters will find anything to whine about. Ok, I want to see a show of hands: How many "real Pontiac enthusiasts" think that, because the WS6 (made in Canada?) had the "dreaded" LS1 engine, it wasn't a real Trans Am? Remember guys, that horrible, nasty "Chevy motor" was also in the Camaro SS. Come on, you know you want to bash the WS6 now don't you?

Fact is: The LS1 is not a "Chevy motor", the WS6 was a Trans Am and the '04 GTO is a Pontiac GTO. There is simply nothing that all your whining can do about that.

The Champ · #13 12-17-2004, 05:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by David Jones:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> GM's family of LS1 overhead-valve V-8 engines can trace its roots to the fabled Chevrolet small-block V-8 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't really morph the above statement by GM from GM's own web site into anything about a Cadillac. I'm not using logic here, that would be a waste of time. Posted a quote from GM. You're supplying the changes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not that hard, and is actually more correct.

They refer to GM's family of OHV V-8's. Well, the first one was the 331 CI Cadillac. And taking it back even further, it was Cadillac that brought the first mass production V8 to market - I believe in 1914.

The LS1 is a new design. Your own link states that it is replacing the SBC, not an extenuation of it.

Bottom line, the LS1 family of engines is GM. Not Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Olds (RIP), or Cadillac.

Tripower455 · #14 01-19-2005, 11:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>yes my 69 is my daily driver. man you must know everythign about me. first you know that your sound system in your 04 sounds better then my 69. now you know how far i drive everyday. what next? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's easy to deduce from your posts. Your view on the subject is even more closed minded than Whatza70goat's (

), which is saying something. I know for a fact that the new GTO has a better stock sound system than a '69, because I have heard both. It is also as good or better than most current stock systems. I also know that if you drive a '69 GTO as a driver that you aren't driving it very far, or leaving it unattended very long, unless you're an idiot. A 69 is not an easy car to replace. If the 2004 is stolen, I call my insurance co, and order an '05.

FWIW, I drive my '04 185 miles, each way, to work every week, and leave it unattended in an airport parking lot for 3-4 days at a time. Anybody that would use an old GTO for that purpose needs a serious head exam. The new one is perfect for the purpose. It's fun to drive, get's good economy, is comfortable, quiet, passes with aplomb and is pretty stealthy, especially compared to my old Formula, which was a cop/ricer/rustang magnet.......

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> no looks arent the most important. its the performance that is. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is precisely why I bought a new GTO, in spite of it's looks. It performs better, in just about every way, than an old one (remember, I have had both), not to mention most other new cars on the road.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>you guys are making this car sound like its the best looking fastest,best handling car made. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, we are simply giving credit, where credit's due. It is, overall, a GREAT car, well worthy of the GTO nameplate it wears. I can say that after actually owning and driving it. It would be nice if it were more retro styled, like the new Mustang (which is a great looking car. I still wouldn't buy one since I am not comfortable in them for more than 5 minutes)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> to prove a point i told you guys about 4/6 banger imports that will beat it or at least hang right with the new GTO for the same price if not cheaper. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I am still waiting for you to name one.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> then you come back with excuses like oh its AWD it can handle better. you think? maybe thats why it is AWD. or it has boost. yeah and it needs a lot of it. or you wouldnt drive it. i would considering it does everything (1/4,handle,accelerate better then the gto) since thats what its all about.if you guys want to compare cars for what they can do (1/4 mile times,skidpad,0-60) and find another car that will do what the new GTO can do or do it better dont get pissed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Name one car that will outperform the new GTO, that is in the same class (both $$$ and performance wise). There aren't any. I am not pissed, I am VERY happy with my new GTO. Driving a FWD (or AWD for that matter), 4 banger sh!tbox, no matter how well it "performs", is not exciting to me in the least. At least until you start hydroplaning, the FWD becomes REAL exciting, but not in a good way........

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>i would too if i spent $35,000 on a badge. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I spent considerably less than that on my '04, and considerably more on my '66.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> what are you gonna do if some kid pulls up to you at a stoplight and wants to run em? say no all i race is RWD imports in the same price range. now who was talking about common sense? and stating the obvios?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, I'll say no because I have way too muc common sense and self esteem to street race. I also have WAAAAY too much to lose and nothing whatsoever to gain. I am a 40 y.o. professional, with a house, wife and kids. What incentive is there for me to beat a 17 y.o. in a Civic? In the risk/reward equation, there is very little reward.

Second of all, there are very few 13 second anythings running around on the street, regardless of what you think, so there is little point in it.

I know that it will beat most cars on the road (even if it looks like them), and that some will beat it. So what? None have the whole package that the GTO has (unless you get into the higher end, MUCH more expensive Beamers/AMG Benzs).

I've got news for you, there are a lot of cars running around that will spank your '69. Bad. No matter how fast your car is, there is always something faster. Judging from your other posts on the subject, I'd be surprised if yours breaks 14s the way it sits now. Should you sell it and buy something else? Should you not like it because of this fact? Should I criticize your car because BOTH of my GTOs will probably spank yours? My answer is no. A '69 Judge (even a clone) is a VERY cool car, (it's my 2nd favorite GTO, in fact.....66 is the first). It just serves a different purpose than a new one. FWIW, it seems that you are a younger guy, and if so, I applaud your choice of a '69 Goat, rather than a newer car. I had a '77 GP in HS and early college, as well as a '66 GTO, '69 GP and a few others, so I can relate.

If I could only afford 1 GTO right now, I would choose the 2004, because I need a reliable car for my commute. Fortunately, I don't have to choose, so I have a nice daily driver AND a really cool weekend cruiser.

The Champ · #15 12-17-2004, 08:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Trace:
Grand Am?! Wait a minute, Randy... you are converting it to rwd, right? Have to be - and that would be very cool!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Grand Am was originally RWD, and Randy's is a RWD car...

The Champ · #16 12-21-2004, 06:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
Buick,Olds,Chevy and Pontiac all made 350s.So what.Why are people talking litres.It is irrelevant to this disscusion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The LS1 is listed by GM, the manufacturer, as a 5.7 liter engine. Converted to CI's, I believe it is a 346.

Pontiac has never built a 350 V8. They built a 347 and a 354.

Not sure of the actual dimensions on the Olds or Buick "350's".

The Champ · #17 01-05-2005, 09:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
>>> Billy Bob: Go back and review my original post on the subject.( Again.Speaking of thick skulls!

). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Mr. Thickest Skull on the Planet...

Here is your original post on the Endura bumper which was posted on 11/27/04:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I think '70 was the last good year for the GTO and only with the Endura Bumper option. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now please, go lay down by your dish. I'm tired of kicking your sorry dog arse...

As I have told you multiple times, you only brought up the Jury trying to defend your totally incorrect post.

I ain't your Billy Bob.

red70goat · #18 01-19-2005, 12:57 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tripower455:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ??? QUOTE]

"The '04 looks like a lot of other cars on the road. So what? So did the '64. "

"more like ALL of the other cars on the road. i dont recall comapring the 64 to the 04."

I don't know who quoted what up there but the old argument that the 64 as an introductory GT0 ( then as an option on the Tempest ) looked like a lot of other cars as a valid argument to the 2004 as a introductory GTO 40 yrs later looking like a lot of other cars is totally irrelevant and not comparable at all. In 1964 US cars looked distinctly different from their Eastern Pacific Rim competitors, if you could even call them competitors at that time...and there weren't that many of them! Unlike today where there are both foreign and domestic manufacturers competing on the same soil and in greater numbers sharing the same industrial fleet design.

Trace · #19 12-14-2004, 11:27 PM

Nice post, projectfolly - we all can argue ad infinitum about styling. I for one love the styling of my '04 - sleek & smooth! I like the older cars too, but just sitting in one reminds me the appeal is based on nostalgia - I wouldn't want my modern mechanicals sheathed in such bodywork, anymore than I'd want my '03 Suzuki SV1k to look like a 60's or 70's model Suzuki.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #20 01-14-2005, 12:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
i have nothign against the LS1. i perfer the LT1 over it because my roomie blew the he** out of a 98 SS and he got a 97 T/A and we tried to blow the LT1 and we couldnt blow it up. but with all the hype about it and it only does 13.3-6 (mag articles i havent seen one run in person) for the 04. 05 gets 50 hp boost to 400 and its supposed to do 13.1. yeah lets slap a pontiac badge on that and call it a GTO. hell i bet if you took a stock T/A or SS and put a power programer on it and get some better tires you coudl do that if not more. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are saying that a comfortable mid/low 13 second car, with AC, power everything, a great sound system, seating for 4 adults that handles great and gets 27 mpg is a bad thing?

My stock Formula was faster than my stock '04 GTO. Both of them are faster than a stock '66 GTO, by over a second.

My '66 convertible will easily be in the mid/low 12's when it is done. For what I have in that car to make it like new, I could almost buy 2 new GTOs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats the point im trying to make about your formula and the new GTO. so why brag about it being fast? i wouldnt call the sound system great. decent at best. i dont need to have power everything i have hands/arms i can roll up windows and push a button down to lock my doors just fine. my 69 can seat 4. might be a full second faster stock but you gotta compare today and then. no way in hell you could compare any tire then to a nitto drag radial or the like. that alone is worth quite a bit. for one reason i like my 69 better is because nothign else on the road looks like it. yeah i get attetion from the mustangs,camaros,imports but the car was made to go fast. if i wanted something to ride aorund in id get a 1930-50 model not a ford (everyone and their brother has one) it woul be somethign diffrent as well. what can you say about a 04 or 05 GTO that makes it diffrent then any other car (besides the name)?