[cat tracker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blown Nitro Pontiac:
Bill has his history wrong, in many facets.

The car was NOT ordered by a customer. The car was ordered by Harold Ramsey hisself (a salesman at Union Park), to race hisself, along with a '63 Swiss Cheese. When the car was thrown into a category that it could NOT compete in, Harold tried to sell the car. I tried to call Harold two years ago, but he suffered a stroke and could not speak. Sadly, Harold passed away last year, from what I heard.

A friend of mine, 19 at the time, was one of those who tried to buy the car, but whose mother would not co-sign a loan to buy a car that could not be driven on the street.



The car was NOT raced by a "couple of guys"; the car was raced by Joe(Hippo)with Harold's assistance. Previously, Hippo ran a '62 Plymouth 413, towed by a '61 Chevy Biscayne 348. Like the '63 SD wagon, the '62 Plymouth was also repossessed.



The car was NOT wrecked by running off the end of the track; the car was wrecked because it hit a deer on the track at Cecil County, MD.

I wasn't aware that junkyards/impound lots offered GMAC financing on wrecked, repossessed year-old cars without motors.



For Mr. Blair's story to be accurate, the car would have had to be taken from the impound lot, repaired with new aluminum, painted, have the motor reinstalled, finance fees paid, impound and towing fees paid, etc; All to sell a car, in running condition, with GMAC financing AND a warranty, for $2300? And from whom did Mr. Blair buy the car? Union Park? The credit company?



Don Keefe has also researched the history and has actually spoken to Hippo, so perhaps Don can offer his insight.

I spoke to Bill about this 18 years ago and to my recollection, he was speaking of a different SD wagon. I could be wrong on that point, tho, but I don't think so. The next step would be to call Frank Ursumorso, Jr., at Union Park and have him dig up his records. Then, the PA DMV would have to substantiate a title history. I'll leave that up to Mr. Keefe. Or to Tex the Investigator...



Hey, I'm as big a fan of these early Tempests/Catalinas as the next guy; probably moreso than most. Consequently, I'd like to believe the car made it out of the junkyard in '64. However, there are too many holes in the stories to leave unexplained, and to just believe on the surface those with financial stakes in the car.



Now....on to Amelia Earheart and Jimmy Hoffa. I know of this guy who claims to have a femur bone belonging to Jimmy Hoffa......... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I spoke to Tex the Investigator. He didn't want to get involved. He said that it is better to be silent and be thought an idiot than to speak and remove all doubt. - Dwight Sr

[Brian Baker]

Dwight...what did Tex say about YOUR removing all doubt?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[cat tracker]

Brian: He was talking for both of us. - Dwight Sr.

[Brian Baker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dwight Crawford:
Brian: He was talking for both of us. - Dwight Sr. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tom s:
Scott,you have been to his place!YOU give him a call!Tom </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't.

He greatly dislikes Yanks, remember?

[rusticoaf]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Don Keefe:
Calling this car a "rebody" is innacurrate. If it was, Randy Williams would have said so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

'nuff said

[gwalters]

I for one would forgo any lapse in it's history and be satisfied that it is my single favorite restoration among all known Pontiacs. The workmanship and credit to the originality of the factory race program of that era provides an example I think anyone would be proud to own. In fact if someone asked me what car on this planet I would want if given any car, I think this car alone would be at the top of my list. And for those fanatics that can point out museum pieces with every day of ownership checked off, that is not and should not be what this hobby has become, in my opinion. If that is how we now decide the value of ownership of historic cars, then it is a sad commentary on what some people's focus about being car crazy should be. This car was built for a man who cherished proudly the heritage of a car culture that will never exist again and I can not think of any vehicle that exemplifies any better the passion for pure engineering GM could produce when given the freedom to explore the potential of the Pontiac. Sure I have been a long time advocate of the ropeshaft era Tempests, but this car provides not only the best example of those cars, but perhaps ALL Pontiacs and perhaps all of GM. Anyone who thinks they could build a better tribute to our love for the automobile and remain true to the heritage of what this car represents, had better have saved whole dealership's worth of NOS parts and have a prototype car still in the wrapper to come close to this masterful piece of art.

[Tom Vaught]

My only comments are:

1) I value Don Keefe's opinions and research highly.

2) I personally saw the vehicle being restored by Scott Tiemann over many months and Scott/
Randy were very forthright in explaining all of the parts and the difficulties with rebuilding the car. Randy paid more for the 10 special SD Tempest radiators to be recreated than I have
in value in my 64 GTO. I see no real evidence to show that the car is not as described. If a rebody means taking better parts off of a vehicle to make your vehicle better, I am guilty
of that as I have been swapping better trim pieces/ parts from doner vehicles, etc for years.

3) I agree that Randy was a very honest (but very shrewd) business man who was buying up SD
Pontiac parts in the early 70s as he outbid me on more than one of them in the old parts trader magazines.


I am glad that Randy does not have to be around to hear this BS said about him.

JMO

Tom V.

[62tempest]

I talked to Scott Tieman last night about this and he said he was pretty sure the car will be at the poci meet in S.C. if they can still get it regesterd for the show. He will have all documentation and over 200 photos if anyone has ? on this being the real deal. If is not at the show he will be more than happy for anyone to call him, he will get the car to his shop with all the paper work and you can look it over yourself. He said I could post his # so all naysayers call. 1-517-647-2433
Thanks: 62

[63Banshee]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 62tempest: </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Semper Fi! Carry on.

[Don Keefe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom Vaught:
My only comments are:

1) I value Don Keefe's opinions and research highly.

2) I personally saw the vehicle being restored by Scott Tiemann over many months and Scott/
Randy were very forthright in explaining all of the parts and the difficulties with rebuilding the car. Randy paid more for the 10 special SD Tempest radiators to be recreated than I have
in value in my 64 GTO. I see no real evidence to show that the car is not as described. If a rebody means taking better parts off of a vehicle to make your vehicle better, I am guilty
of that as I have been swapping better trim pieces/ parts from doner vehicles, etc for years.

3) I agree that Randy was a very honest (but very shrewd) business man who was buying up SD
Pontiac parts in the early 70s as he outbid me on more than one of them in the old parts trader magazines.


I am glad that Randy does not have to be around to hear this BS said about him.

JMO

Tom V. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Tom,

Thank you!

[SD421]

This may be a little off the subject but what did Randy W. do for a living?? Just curious. This a great thread. With all of this squabbling going on it almost reminds me of the time when D-Macs race car crapped out on him and I was pushing the car through the parking lot & all of Fulpers buddies saw me (being a close friend of Pete McCarthy) & they pushed me outta of the way so they could push one of their own. Ah, the memories.
-Don S.

[White Warrior]

Randy owned a machine shop in,I believe, Columbia City ,near Fort Wayne ,Indiana.

[sdbob]

Yes he owned a machine shop called Economy Machine if I remember,I have his card somewhere.In our dealings,I sold him nos early SD parts and one set of 180degree headers for 366RAIV.He was generous I thought and he shared profits with his employees.Yes I do agree about the 'doubting Thomas's'.My father said 'people who think they are being cheated have cheated other people'.

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

Sorry, Bob, but when one sees fraud in the form of rebodies (Alan Gartzman's '62 SD Gran Prix) perpetrated by the same guy who did this car, one begins to wonder. Especially when one has a friend who was close to this car when this car was new. And even moreso when he admits to retagging cars and passing the fakes off as the real deal.

But, of course, nobody questioned Gartzman's car either, because it was all hyped up and so well-publicized by the all-knowing, squeaky-clean Pontiac inner circle-jerks, that it positively HAD to be a real one. Right?

And, of course, it was later put up for sale.....and sold for much less than a real one should have, because Gartzman couldn't keep his yap shut about what he thought he had gotten away with....Yeah, I had HIM call my house, threatening to kick my ass, too. Gee, I can't imagine why. Maybe because somebody pissed in his nest egg pool?



It's pretty funny how much some people believe, simply because of who is telling the story.

And not "funny" funny, either; More like "sad" funny.



7 pages, 2566 views and counting.

[sdbob]

Oh boy I didn't know about the 62GP being re....Sorry BNP. I'm not up on all the stories I'll stay in my simple quiet life. Bob.

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

S'OK, Bob. I understand. It's only because you're not in the Pontiac inner-circlejerk that you were unaware.

Anybody who lives near BOTH the Rolling Rock factory AND Fort Ligonier is OK in my book.

[rusticoaf]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blown Nitro Pontiac:

7 pages, 2566 views and counting.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the fact that you feel the need to post this tells me everything i need to know about you and your credibility. in most places i frequent people like you are called 'post-whores'

and yeah, bob is right, Randy owned a machine shop in roanoke, indiana. it is still being run by Jean, with Randy's philosophy 'growth thru respect' in mind. to Randy, that was more than a saying, and anybody who knows him can attest.

BNP, i don't know how much more you can prove that you DIDN'T know him.

as was stated before, if the car was rebodied, Randy would've said so.

[4spdT37]

Hey Vince, thanks for taking the time to post
these pictures of an impeccable restoration.
This gives those of us who could not attend the
show an idea of the level of quality of the cars
that were on display.

Two thumbs up to Scott Tiemann for his attention
to detail, Beautiful job!!!

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

Funny, rustioaf, but I don't recall having made any post saying the car was a fake. Please show me where that is stated. And I only spoke once on the phone with Randy, so I can't comment on his character, sorry.

2 posts, huh?



By the way, Cletus, the number of views (not the number of posts) proves that it's a popular topic.



2714 views and counting.