[dyingbreed]

Hello all,
Need some expert opinions here! I believe I have an internal leak causing the coolant to mix with the oil. The engine is a Pontiac 400, which is fitted into my 1978 T/A. Here is a little history and the details of my problem:

I purchased this car during August of 2000 and drove it for about 2 years (1000 miles) without any problems. Then one day the engine over-heated (faulty thermostat). I replaced the T-stat and everything seemed fine, except for the fact that I was loosing coolant. However, it was not mixing with the oil. No leaks were found in the radiator, hoses, water pump, etc.. I now had suspicions that I may have blown a head gasket caused by my engine overheating. Then one day when checking the oil, I found the infamous "chocolate milkshake" on the oil dipstick.

A reputable garage, near my home, wanted about $1000-$1200 to check the engine and replace both head gaskets. But a buddy of mine said he would do it for less. My buddy races a Pontiac and has decent knowledge of engines. He has a Pontiac 400 in his firebird and does most of the work on this engine himself. For this reason, I decided to have him repair my engine.

He did a compression and a leak down tests on my engine and determined it had indeed blown a head gasket. He disassembled the top half of the engine and sent the heads out to be checked for cracks and milled. During this time he also found some additional areas of concern. To make a long story short, he ended up replacing the cam, lifters, pushrods, radiator, belts and hoses. This was in addition to re-installing the heads, using new Butler head gaskets and an oil change. The total bill for all parts and repairs, including machine work for the heads, came to about $1400

He returned my car and everything seemed to work fine. I drove the car for about 100 miles and noticed I was again loosing coolant. During the next 100 miles, I added approximately 2 gallons of coolant, but did not notice anything unusual in the oil. Finally, I pulled a valve cover and noticed a thick white-gray substance inside the top of the covers. I started the engine and discovered the oil didn’t look quite right coming into the valvetrain.

I called my buddy (the one who previously repaired the engine) and he said to bring it back to his shop. Upon arrival, he took off the valve covers and saw the same thick white-gray buildup around the valve train. However, he assured me this was most likely only condensation. He did some tests on the engine, changed the oil and said everything seemed fine (he also charged me another $75).

I then drove my car around for a week or so (approximately 100 miles) and noticed that it was again loosing coolant. By now, I was too afraid to drive my car and only started it once a month and let it idle for about 20 minutes. During that time (approximately 100 miles and about 2 hours of idling) if have added about 2 gallons of water/coolant.

Today I pulled the valve covers and have included pictures of what I found. I checked the oil when the engine was cold and noticed it has a greenish tint to it. The oil had also risen about an inch past the “full” mark.

Just for my own piece of mind, can any of you please confirm that these pictures indicate coolant would be mixing with the oil and the problem is not just CONDENSATION!
(I think I already know the answer)

My next question is can a person with average mechanical skills (we’re talking about me here) replace a set of head gaskets on a Pontiac engine? If I decide to do this, I’ll most likely start another post and some of you can walk me through this.

Thanks in advance for any replies and I apologize this got so lengthy!
db

[dyingbreed]

Hello all,
Need some expert opinions here! I believe I have an internal leak causing the coolant to mix with the oil. The engine is a Pontiac 400, which is fitted into my 1978 T/A. Here is a little history and the details of my problem:

I purchased this car during August of 2000 and drove it for about 2 years (1000 miles) without any problems. Then one day the engine over-heated (faulty thermostat). I replaced the T-stat and everything seemed fine, except for the fact that I was loosing coolant. However, it was not mixing with the oil. No leaks were found in the radiator, hoses, water pump, etc.. I now had suspicions that I may have blown a head gasket caused by my engine overheating. Then one day when checking the oil, I found the infamous "chocolate milkshake" on the oil dipstick.

A reputable garage, near my home, wanted about $1000-$1200 to check the engine and replace both head gaskets. But a buddy of mine said he would do it for less. My buddy races a Pontiac and has decent knowledge of engines. He has a Pontiac 400 in his firebird and does most of the work on this engine himself. For this reason, I decided to have him repair my engine.

He did a compression and a leak down tests on my engine and determined it had indeed blown a head gasket. He disassembled the top half of the engine and sent the heads out to be checked for cracks and milled. During this time he also found some additional areas of concern. To make a long story short, he ended up replacing the cam, lifters, pushrods, radiator, belts and hoses. This was in addition to re-installing the heads, using new Butler head gaskets and an oil change. The total bill for all parts and repairs, including machine work for the heads, came to about $1400

He returned my car and everything seemed to work fine. I drove the car for about 100 miles and noticed I was again loosing coolant. During the next 100 miles, I added approximately 2 gallons of coolant, but did not notice anything unusual in the oil. Finally, I pulled a valve cover and noticed a thick white-gray substance inside the top of the covers. I started the engine and discovered the oil didn’t look quite right coming into the valvetrain.

I called my buddy (the one who previously repaired the engine) and he said to bring it back to his shop. Upon arrival, he took off the valve covers and saw the same thick white-gray buildup around the valve train. However, he assured me this was most likely only condensation. He did some tests on the engine, changed the oil and said everything seemed fine (he also charged me another $75).

I then drove my car around for a week or so (approximately 100 miles) and noticed that it was again loosing coolant. By now, I was too afraid to drive my car and only started it once a month and let it idle for about 20 minutes. During that time (approximately 100 miles and about 2 hours of idling) if have added about 2 gallons of water/coolant.

Today I pulled the valve covers and have included pictures of what I found. I checked the oil when the engine was cold and noticed it has a greenish tint to it. The oil had also risen about an inch past the “full” mark.

Just for my own piece of mind, can any of you please confirm that these pictures indicate coolant would be mixing with the oil and the problem is not just CONDENSATION!
(I think I already know the answer)

My next question is can a person with average mechanical skills (we’re talking about me here) replace a set of head gaskets on a Pontiac engine? If I decide to do this, I’ll most likely start another post and some of you can walk me through this.

Thanks in advance for any replies and I apologize this got so lengthy!
db

[sixtee8gto]

Could be a possibility that the coolant is getting in by the timing cover gasket.

[69GPModJ]

I've not had as much of a problem as you appear to have but it looks to me as though you have a pretty good leak. I had a minor leak via the timing cover that resulted in a bit of a milky film on the inside of the valve covers. You've really got a milkshake there.

BTW, timing cover leaks are the most common cause of coolant in the crankcase. My problem wasn't with the gasket but with the cover itself. It looked okay to me but was a bit corroded. I swapped the cover and, bingo, the leak was gone.

Aside from the leak itself, I'd be concerned about rod and main bearings, as they don't like antifreeze AT ALL. When I had my leak I was told to take the engine out and tear it down, as the bearings would probably have some damage, causing them to flake and fail later on. I got lucky and was able to simply put everything back together but my understanding is that 99% of the time there's bearing damage.

Regarding the leak, I have my doubts that the problem is a head gasket--unless the fellow who did the repair really doesn't know what he's doing and / or the machine shop didn't bother to check the heads thoroughly. If the problem was a head gasket in the first place, you'd think the problem would have been solved with the work you had done.

[george kujanski]

My suggesstion (you won't like it) is to pull the engine & take it apart and check everything.
It could be just the heads/gaskets, BUT, if it is something else, you'll be wasting your time. It's easier to do the heads out of the car anyway, you can replace the bearings, etc. & do a better job of cleaning out the crud.

George

[dyingbreed]

Here's a picture of the inside of the valve cover

db

[69GPModJ]

E-e-e-e-e-e-wwwwww! Yuck.

BTW, I agree with George. If you pull the engine, you can go through everything. You can even have the block sent out and checked for cracks if you think that's necessary.

[PMDRACER]

I'll third the opinion. Pull the motor and do a full tear down. What you spend now is nothing compared to if you end up replacing the entire reciprocating assembly.
Not to mention the piece of mind from doing it the right way.

[dyingbreed]

Thanks for your fast replies and pateience in waiting for the pictures to download (sorry)!

Maybe I shouldn't be so quick to blame the person who may or may not have "fixed" my engine. First of all, what are the different issues that could cause this problem. The obvious would appear to be:
1) head gasket
2) timing chain divider plate/gasket
3) cracked block?

Are there anymore?
db

[69GPModJ]

I've heard it's really rare but once in a while you find a pinhole between one of the cylinders and the water jacket.

[Doug Christie]

Here's what bearings look like after a little water mixed with oil go's through them.

[71 formula]

I agree with checking the timing cover and gasket. I have had that happen to me before. I replaced the corroded timing cover changed the oil several times and added bars leak. Ran fine after that maybe i was lucky.

[skipp65]

does or did the engine have a miss? how hot did the engine get when it first overheated? if your buddy installed a camshaft he would have replaced the timing cover gasket.if he is familiar with pontiacs he would have checked the cover.you are getting a lot of water in the oil in a short amount of time,unless you have a terrible miss its not a head gasket especially new ones. sounds like a cracked head or possibly cracked block.antifreeze does wipe out bearings quick.find the definate problem so you can eliminate it before starting over.good luck and sorry about youre misfortune

[lust4speed]

My money would be on a hole in the timing cover. Probably directly behind the plates, but maybe in one of the passage corners. It sure doesn't look like the problem was head or gasket related since you have exactly the same conditions present after the rebuild. I also agree that too much time has elapsed with the sludge on the bearings and another complete tear down is in your future. But just for kicks, start by pulling off the water pump and plates and really poke around it for holes.

Also my experience with cracked blocks is that exhaust gas is pushed in the water passages and the resulting gas pockets cause overheating, but not oil contamination.

[quicksilver97ta]

Exactly what lust4speed said. The car is obvoiusly on the back burner, not a daily driver. Pull the waterpump and timing chain cover, you can do that yourself, no need to pay your buddy. There's a good chance your problem is there from the symptoms. You'll feel much better about a complete tear down later if you find your leak first.

[mikeb]

Another consideration is to not let it sit around for too long - the water will begin to rust the inside of the engine. This problem needs to be corrected very soon.

[fdowdy]

Sad to say, I've seen that milkshake firsthand. About 100 miles after a whole lot of engine work including a .030 overbore (1964 389). When we tore it down (you absolutely need to do that), there was a pinhole in a cylinder wall that required a sleeve to repair. That fix worked well for that engine.

[Brian Baker]

Rick, I hope the milkshake effect wasn't as obvious when your buddy looked at it as it is in these pics. If it was, I think he should cut you a break on correcting the problem (if you take it back to him) for misdiagnosing it.

[dyingbreed]

Quote by Brian Baker:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Rick, I hope the milkshake effect wasn't as obvious when your buddy looked at it as it is in these pics. If it was, I think he should cut you a break on correcting the problem (if you take it back to him) for misdiagnosing it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brian,
It wasn't quite that obvious, but close! As far as having my buddy fixing the problem AGAIN... I don't think so! If it wasn't fixed correctly the first time, or the second time...
I have my reservations about a return visit for a third time. Don't get me wrong, there are no hard feelings here (I'm an easy going person... most of the time). In fact, I still don't know what caused this problem and don't want to place the blame on anyone... yet! I do recall the person who "fixed" the engine stated the water pump assembly (divider plate) looked OK.

Right now I'm just looking for an easy fix to the problem. I have been saving $ for the past 2+ years to have a motor put together by one of the experienced engine builders who frequent the PY forums. I just want to be able to have fun and drive the car until I save enough $ to have a performance engine built. In short words, leave this engine in the car (in good running condition) until I get another one.

I'm just wondering if I shouldn't buy a used engine from one of the many members, who have some for sale here on the PY forums. I've seen a couple of rebuilt engines for sale here, in the $700 - $1200 range. It would most likely cost me that much to have my current engine repaired or rebuilt... "AGAIN." Not to mention, it would be much quicker just to drop another engine in. Hell, I don't know what to do! I will probably have someone give me a second opinion on the head gasket issue. What "tests" will show if a head gasket is leaking (Compression, leak down and/or .....?

db

[71 formula]

If you don't have the money for a new motor my suggestion is to check the timing cover where they are talking about. Pontiacs are very prone to corrode their. If need be replce the timing cover then put in some bars leak and if the milk stops then change the oil a couple of times and run it. It's atleast a cheap chance it may work. I dont think it's a head gasket because would either pressurize coolant system or burn water. A compression tester would tell you something, if one or two of cylinders are low but i don't think it would make oil milky. Just realize that if you do try to run it after that there is a good chance that the motor will not last very long. They do make something to pressurize your cooling system but if it's an internal leak you still wount see it leaking. Sorry about the bad luck but it's a good time to jump in there and learn so you don't have to pay anyone. If you need help on taking things apart just ask and i am sure this board will help you.