[Ray Cox]

SOUNDS GREAT TO ME LIKE I SAID LOOK OUT MUSI AND PRO STREET HERE WE COME !!!!

[Tom Vaught]

That's Right, Pat and Tony.

You watch out cause Ray is coming after you!

I love you man! LOL!

Help you any way I can! (except for money!)
LOL!

My son's flying costs TOO much to give it to friends.

Tom V.

[Brian Baker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lloyd-TX:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Baker:
There is no "new" Butler iron block that I'm aware of, but I believe Butler still has a stash of IA-I blocks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brian:

I've spoken with Jim on several occasions concerning their new aluminum AND iron blocks. Three iron blocks HAVE been cast, but they want to finish R&D and testing on the aluminum block before releasing the iron blocks for sale.

My engine builder believes that an iron block is better suited for my purposes.

I hate to step on any toes, but Jim has told me that the alloy in their iron block is FAR superior to the IA2 alloy and that each Butler iron block will be subjected to a "seasoning" process prior to shipping. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that so? Haven't heard Butler advertising about any new iron block coming out, just the aluminum.

Seems awful peculiar that the only block in town was the Indian Adventures block, before Bob & Frank purchased the rights to that block from Dick. Now there are suddenly other new blocks coming out of the woodwork (with the KRE block I saw at VMP looking like a dead ringer for the IA-II block).

Stepping on toes indeed.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Paul,

Block and pictures are impressive.
Appears to me the deck is nearly dry.
Finish machine work looks super. I will have to send these pictures to the son-in-law of the PMD's original V8 designer.

HIS

[Maximum Race Engines]

Guys-
Yes, Jim does not keep it a secret that he wants to produce an iron block. But right now he wants to promote his aluminum block and that is all he is advertising. As far as where JBP or KRE for that matter have come up with there versions, it is up for the companies at hand to deal with. The most important thing now is that the IA2 WILL be the best around. I am working with ALLPONTIAC to be able to incorporate everything possible to make life easier for everyone at hand from street guys to race guys. Nothing will be done unless we know it will work. I am sure there are alot of builders wanting to see alot of different changes be made, and I for one will be trying to make certain ideas happen. But everyone needs to understand that certain changes require money, and nobody wants to see the price of this block get driven back up. Bob and Frank asked me in the begining about how much I think it should be sold for, and they used it. I would hate to see that altered due to any major design changes. ALLPONTIAC has come up with something that will work, they are open for suggestions, and I'm sure will offer options to those wanting them. Bob and Frank are not in this to promote a junk block. They are indeed made out of the best high quality iron that can be used. To quote Bob, "If we can't make the best block around, then there is no sense in doing it..." These guys are dedicated and they should be commended for it. I am not just saying that because I am working with them on this, but because they are in it for the same reason I am, we just love doing it. I will report back from time to time with any new progress. If anyone has any questions about the block feel free to email me.

Joe Pontiac
Maximum Race Engines
[email protected]
www.maximumraceengines.com

[al]

Great I can see it now. The great new block debate/battle.

[Tom Vaught]

Can someone explain to me what their defination of a
"Seasoned" block is?

My thought initially is that you are saying that the stresses in the block have been removed over time by
mileage from vibratory and thermal changes.

There are companies out there that marty and I were aware of that offered vibratory stress relieving.
Is this what you are suggesting that Jim is doing?

By the way, There has been speculation that the Butler aluminum blocks were cast overseas. Gale Banks
told me a few weeks ago when I had lunch with his that he heard a Pontiac block was being cast up in Indianapolis, IN at the same place the new 427 F.E.
iron blocks are being cast at. He mentioned a name
but I see a different name mentioned in the July 2004
magazine for the F.E. Engines.
Genesis Performance Castings (317) 357-8767

[Tom Vaught]

Turns out the Genesis people are a sub company of the name I heard from Banks.

Tom V.

[Rob]

That's it Tom, vibration, heating, cooling, ageing. Not sure what JBP's definition of "seasoning" is as it could be just about any process that may or may not help a engine perform better or longer because the environment they operate in changes quite a bit.

First time I was introduced to it was making machinist angle plates, guys showed me how to make a hunk of iron into a 90 degree angle within .0002" over 6 inches. They thought it was pretty funny when after producing one even a little better than that a month later it wasn't straight within .003"! Over time things will move.



-Rob

[Ray Cox]

one thing is for sure we are lucky to have a block and Im glad all pontiac is trying to improve it BUT EVEN IF THEY DONT IMPROVE IT I would gladly use it just the way it is and if Butlers and KRE come out with one also, then we are all the more lucky that we finally have the parts so now we need to learn to make them work and kick some chevy butt!

[Maximum Race Engines]

Point well made Ray. There are alot of critics in the hobby. What the hobby needs is more support. Hopefully, with a few ideas in the works, we will see some more items to choose from in the near future. Can't go into too much about it right now, but it should be good.

Joe Pontiac
Maximum Race Engines
www.maximumraceengines.com
[email protected]

[slowbird]

Still need some high flowing race heads that will feed 540+cid.

[Brian Baker]

No debates here. My support is going to Bob & Frank at AllPontiacs. I havn't seen anyone else's operation, but I've seen Bob's, and I know that he won't put his name on anything if the quality isn't there.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slowbird:
Still need some high flowing race heads that will feed 540+cid. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree.

[David Holmberg]

I thought a Seasoned block was something that Bill Jenkins came up with as a marketing tool when he didn't have any new blocks to sell...



These people give me a friggin headache. One of them could be dying of thirst and you offer them a glass of water, and they'll want to know if it's spring water or not...

[Tom Vaught]

Proven fact that a 100K block has done its deal as far as moving around.

If someone gives me a IA-II block I will season it for them but it might take a while at 1/4 mile each time to reach 100K LOL!

Tom V.

[Robert C.]

Just a quote that I found on the net:

(For mass production applications, auto manufacturers do wait a year or
more before using cast iron engine blocks. In fact, the foundries normally stack the engine blocks out in a yard and let them rust. When needed they pull them into the shop for machining. At Ford they called it the seasoning.)

(Engine bearing tolerances are tight, but most block tolerances are not, including the cylinder bore. The piston rings have a certain degree of springiness to conform to the bore. Bearings are normally inserted into a housing in the block and torqued down. Racing engines or other high performance engines are a different story. They call finding the exact and tight tolerance "blue printing.")

yard.) From: Kempinski, Robert M. ([email protected]) http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Se...asa.gov&rnum=2

CNC Machines are cast and put out side to rust for a year or more. The process of expanding and shrinking everyday will take out stress. This is used to hold extreme close tolerances that are need to machine parts. I do not think that we are machining down to the .00002 millionth of an inch here. Yes a block will settle or move over time. Yes you can heat treat it to remove stress. Are you willing to add $200.00 to the price or more maybe for .0005 tenths of and inch?

Seasoning: It’s like spaghetti and meat balls. Isn't better after you have put it in the refrigerator for a week and reheat it? Only a
Wop like me would know. Aint that right?

Bob Cacciotti

[Tom Vaught]

My opinion is that race engines are like a horse that is run hard and put away wet, you
don't like to do it but sometimes you have little choice.

A 2000 hp block is moving around so much the dimensions you thought you had may be anywhere.

Some 1000+ hp blocks too if it is a roots style
blower car with a high belt load at high rpm (like a high helix 14-71).

Turbos are the easiest on the blocks due to their design and the fact that the crank sees a lot less
twist.

Tom V.

[David Holmberg]

Well, I'm just telling you what Grumpy told me while chewing the butt of a cigar at the 76 US Nationals...

[Rob]

Everything moves with temperature changes, I think it would be neat to be able to measure engine bore distortions when they're hot.

Changes happen so fast in racing that you'll never get a chance to wait a year on a block.

-Rob