[franky 455]

I finally got my '74 Formula running with a factory HEI. 12 volts supplied by running resistor wire to a relay and sending the 12 volts back from the battery. I am running a 990 module and stock coil. It does have some advance issues, that I have to get through. I gave it a wash and put it away for the night. Tried to start it today - no spark. Question 1. How long will the module last without grease? I only found out module needed grease after reading other posts here. Question 2. Is it possible too many volts are getting to the distributor, cooking the coil or module? I haven't been able to test the exact voltage at the dist. If not, does anyone have any other ideas?

thanks,
Frank

[franky 455]

I finally got my '74 Formula running with a factory HEI. 12 volts supplied by running resistor wire to a relay and sending the 12 volts back from the battery. I am running a 990 module and stock coil. It does have some advance issues, that I have to get through. I gave it a wash and put it away for the night. Tried to start it today - no spark. Question 1. How long will the module last without grease? I only found out module needed grease after reading other posts here. Question 2. Is it possible too many volts are getting to the distributor, cooking the coil or module? I haven't been able to test the exact voltage at the dist. If not, does anyone have any other ideas?

thanks,
Frank

[Malky]

I don't know how long module will last without grease but I would suspect it would be months rather than hours. How long have you run it like this?
If your alternator is putting out the standard 14-15 volts, that will not cook module or coil. You need to get a cheap multimeter and confirm what voltage you are getting at the main distributor feed.
Also disconnect the module connector inside the dist. that comes from the pickup coil under the centrifugal weights. Measure the resistance of this coil. I think it should be about 800 ohms. With ohmeter connected, wiggle the two wires to look for changes in resistance as they can break inside the insulation from the constant cycling of the vacuum advance.
Another possibilty is the main power connecter coming loose as the retaining clips are usually broken off.

[franky 455]

G`Day Malky.I only drove it around the block a dozen times or so, until the neighbours shooshed me. Total run time 45 mins. starting, idleing while tuneing & a few quick blasts down the road. The alternator is standard @ 14 volts.I did buy a cheap multimeter today & there is 12.17 volts at main dist. feed & the pick up coil is @ 820 ohms. I tried another module today, second hand I think its worse than my original, did not help. I also bought a MSD in cap coil pn8225. I would buy another module, but all you can get is E-Tron for $65.00 I would prefer another 990, if I could find one, at around $95.00, $130.00 will get me the MSD pn8364. Another question,I have the red & white wire coil, the MSD8225 is red & yellow, is this OK?
Thanks Frank.

[Malky]

I don't know for sure about the coil wiring, Frank, but the three spare coils I have are yellow/red wires.
Primary side resistance seems to be less than 1 ohm. Secondary is 8 koms for one and 14 kohms for the othr two.
About the only 2 things left that could be wrong if module is OK are broken wire/bad connection, or the condenser. I have never had a condenser on an HEI fail on me so I am not sure what that does. If it is anything like the old points distributor, it can't be good for the module. Try a search on this board for "condenser" or "capacitor"
I stopped to help a guy stranded in a Corvette recently and he had no spark. I swapped in a good module and that did not fix it. I lifted the cap off with everything still connected and got him to crank the engine just to make sure the rotor was turning. When I replaced the cap, he had spark. It was probably a loose connection or wire broken that I disturbed by stretching the wiring.

[Sun Tuned]

Franky,
I may not completely understand what you're asking but I'll try to help. The module definitely needs the heat sink compound. no question about that. Without it ALL modules reguardless of brand, will die a painful and useless death without the heat sink compound.

How long? Depends on a couple of things. Mainly the amount of heat it has to endure. The hotter it gets the quicker it will cook. And how was the past history before you got it?? Who knows? In an emergency you could probably get by without the compound, but I would not chance it for far. Have seen some go for a couple hundred miles and seen a couple last for about 15-20. So the answer is not for very long.

Gotta remember the thing is nothing more than an electronic version of a set of points. No more, no less. It does however have the ability to add an expanding dwell feature in it and that adds somewhat to the complexity of the deal. Electronics don't like heat, period. The cooler the better. They are pretty tough but don't expect to be able to hold a torch over the thing and have it last for ever either.

Did you say you washed the car or the distributor??? I got a little confused there. Possible the cap got moisture inside???

The ignition coil in fact should be matched to the respective pickup coil that goes with it. I have explained this in other posts so will not go in depth about it here. Some say it's bunk, and others have experienced it first hand and believe what I say, because it has solved some of their problems. They say.

All I know is what I was taught and what I was explained and told. Especially when starting, you will have far less troubles if you keep the yellow pickup coil connector with the matching yellow/red ignition coil (Chevy), and the clear plug pickup coil connector with the red/white ignition coil (Pontiac).

As far as your module problem, well, I don't know until you get a proven and known module in there you may never know either. There are some simple tests to do and if you wish I'll go over them with you, but they are too lengthy to list here.

The pickup coil resistance sounds fine and I assume that reading you obtained cold, correct? Might try and re-read it with it hot and see if there is any difference.


Let us know what you find.

[Malky]

Wow, I didn't know Chevy's and Pontiacs had different ignition coils and p/u coils. Wonder why that is?
The spare coils I have are all from Chevy's so that is why the wires are yellow/red.
Sun Tuned, how often have you seen bad wiring from breaks inside the insulation or bad connections cause this kind of problem?

[franky 455]

Ok guys here is an update, I bought a new module on the way home from work, threw it in (with grease) & guess what? still no spark. Now I am starting to lose it. Sun Tuned thanks for joining in, to answer your questions. I washed the car, including engine bay, water may have got in there , but tonight I pulled the dizzy & took it to a friends place that also posts here "Geoff" & he tested it on the bench, it seems to have a good spark, he tested my original module & it was ok also. Now to the pick up coil, down here there is not much info & a lot of confusion regarding this type of dizzy as there were no Holdens built with them, so we rely on people like yourselves & enthusiasts here like Geoff. My local speed shop only sells the one pickup coil which is a yellow plug, my original coil in cap is red & white. Unfortunately the original pickup coil did not have a plug. With the pickup coil again, yes this was a cold reading. The only thing old in this dizzy now is the capacitor & wireing from plug to module & I will have a search for them next. Please remember guys we tested this on the bench with positive results. Geoff is coming to my place to see if its my wire up job. Car is a 1974 Formula, it had a twin point mallory in it, which served faithfully in it for the last 16 years, Unfortunately fuel here is getting worse, & even with 98 octane the plugs foul. Time for a better spark! anything else you can think of or other tests please let me know.Regarding my response time back to your questions, please be patient as I am writing this at 10pm local time in Sydney.
Thanks Frank.

[Sun Tuned]

Malky,
You talking about the insulation on the pickup coils, or the ignition coils, or both???

Well, before we go hanging a bunch of parts, possibly unnecessarily, let's do some lookin around.

Inspect the cap and be sure it's in good condition, look at the under the coil graphite bushing, "rotor button" as most call it. It should be protruding from the bottom of the cap boss approx 1/8 of an inch. The rotor itself on these HEI's can be kind of finicky too, make sure there are no burn through marks on the rotor and make sure the firing tip end has not been excessively ground back(air gap).

Those are pretty much the basics as far as visual inspection. I would rather see you find a good 12v source at the fuse block to run a 10-12 ga. stranded lead wire from, to the ignition switch instead of the relay. I know it works, but it is a potential problem spot. Just fold the factory resistance wire back and tape it up for possible future use.

The HEI is very voltage sensitive in that it has to have enough oomph to operate correctly. Alot of guys have forgot this and just connected their factory resistance wire to the bottom of the cap terminal only to find the car runs like garbage afterwards. Oh sure the thing will still run...sort of... but it will not run like it's supposed to. You need a minimum of 12v to make it work the most for you and anything more makes it turn rpm higher and higher. Don't go over 18.5v for an extended period or you'll toast it in short order.

Most important is to make sure the basic tune up is in order and work from there. I've seen these same problems be anything from a bad rotor to a bum set of plugs, to a bad new electronic part (new don't always mean good). Since you are where you are and I know how $$$ things get when experimenting there, lets try and test before we go hanging too many parts on it unnecessarily.

[Sun Tuned]

2 more things...

If you want to see if there is any difference you could run a straight 10 ga wire from the + bat terminal to the "BATT" location on the cap and drive it and see. Gonna make shutting it off not too easy but for a quick test....

The other thing is this. I don't know about an Allen machine, (I suspect they are the same), But ANY, and I mean ANY, ghosted arrows on a Sun distributor machine someone may have down there, means bad pickup coil. Believe it! I don't care if it and the next 3 new pickup coils installed after it do the same thing, then you tell em I said all 4 are junk. so watch out for that.

[mrdan7]

Frankly 455, Loose the resistance wire, you will never get HEI type voltages through your system with it still in place.

Same story, many Old Posts...

<span class="ev_code_RED">MRDAN7</span>

[franky 455]

Sun Tuned, to answer your questions the cap is new, I did have a look for cracks though & its ok. The graphite bush is also new, & protrudes the 1/8th you suggested, Rotor is a new MSD, coil new MSD, pick up coil new. Dist. body 1976 Trans Am cleaned up. New 10mm leads, & I bought that new module yesterday.
I initially started the car last Saturday with a wire directly from the battery, pulled the wire to switch off, & connected my relay system to fire it up several times while tuning, then it was washed & put away for the night & wouldnt start again the next day. Unless someone thinks of something else I`ll lock it up till Sunday when Geoff & I work on it again, Keep thinking boys please. Hey Sun Tuned are you ready for a holiday in Sydney, Accomodation paid for? you might be stuck working under my hood though.
Take it easy Frank.

[Malky]

Sun Tuned, Have you seen sneaky, hard-to-find wiring faults in the wiring connecting the body to the cap?

Frank, if you tested the dizzy (great abbreviation, that) off the car and it made sparks, it has to be the 12 V to the dizzy is bad or the rotor is not turning. Or is it possible it is not grounded? Good luck.

[Greg Reid]

Just as a thought, although you probably would have found this by now...20 years ago, I had a similar problem on my first '68 GTO. In my haste to do a tuneup before a road trip, I pinched the condenser lead between the distributor cap and the distributor. Grounded the points so no fire.
In other words, just as the previous post reminds you to make sure that the system hasn't lost a ground connection, it's also important to make sure that no hot wire is grounded.

[Bud Lyons]

Heres another one. Is the rotor spinning? I've had a timing chain break before. Parked the car. It was running fine. Went to start it and nothing.

[78 GHOST]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sun Tuned:
If you want to see if there is any difference you could run a straight 10 ga wire from the + bat terminal to the "BATT" location on the cap and drive it and see. Gonna make shutting it off not too easy but for a quick test.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nothing like this temporary deal to narrow down your search. Ignition switches have been known to work in START and not in RUN. And yes this can happen intermittently. I'd do SunTuned test lead idea first.. pretty much eliminates the vehicle wiring.. just gotta check for any errant grounds.

[franky 455]

Hey Guys, thanks for still helping. Malky I checked the rotor, it is spinning, I am a little suspicious about the earth because I left the dust cover off & using a multimeter checked the power running directly to the coil, through the relay & direct from the temporary power wire, both times showed over 12 volts, dropping down to around 9 volts while cranking, I did use the rocker cover for the earth though so the earth strap is ok.
Greg, the wire is not pinched, but may have been before I got it & damaged it. Can you buy that short loom seperate with capacitor? may as well get that, everything else is new.
Hey Malky, I have been to the States twice now, & ofcourse I hit as many Junkyards & parts places I could find, in Australia we have a few abbreviations & different names eg. what you guys call a hood we call a bonnet. Trunk is a boot. a Fender is a gaurd, Posi = slippery diff. So you can imagine the weird looks I got when I was there. Thanks again.
Take it easy Frank.

[Greg Reid]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by franky 455:
Can you buy that short loom seperate with capacitor? may as well get that, everything else is new.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The condenser (capacitor) that came with the old style breaker points could be bought seperately but I'm not sure about the HEI system. Don't see why not.

Another thing to check is that your timing chain hasn't jumped a tooth. That wouldn't keep it from firing but it would fire in the wrong time and so, would not start.
Just throwing out more ideas.

[Malky]

Frank, coupla things - I don't think grounding the multimeter on the rocker cover proves you have the dizzy grounded. Check ohms between dizzy body and block, should be 0. The HEI holdown clamp should make a pretty good ground to the block. Long shot but worth a check.
The other thing is 9V cranking is low. I would expect 10-11V. Check voltage at battery while cranking. If it higher, you are losing volts at HEI. Sun Tuned says HEI's are sensitive to volts - maybe 9V is too low. Otherwise, I am fresh out of ideas.
I am ex-Brit so I am familiar with most Aussie terms but dizzy is a new one on me.

[Sun Tuned]

Malky,
Yes, but only 2. 1 was used in conjunction with an MSD 7 and I found it by getting shocked outta my socks by accident when i brushed against it while testing it to see what was wrong with it. I found it.

The other was a fracture right just inside where the plastic connector body is molded around the wires at the cap base where the wires go through the actual housing of the dist. Heat caused the wires to become brittle and they just fractured... they'll all do that when old enough or hot enough to harden the wire covering.


Franky,
It's close to midnight. Been a looong long day today. Tomorrow we'll do the easy HEI test to see if we can figure out what's wrong.

First tell us what the thing is not doing or why you think it may be broke, just to refresh my feeble memory.

Food for thought... you can check to see if the thing is grounded with an ohmmeter or you can get lazy like I do sometimes and just Frankenstein the thing up, complete with extra wires running all over just for giggles. run a jumper wire from the housing to an engine bolt or alternator case and see what happens.

Have you actually checked the resistance of this MSD coil on the primary and the secondary with your ohmmeter????

And you do have the extra ground strap under the coil right???

Homework time.