[FirebirdDave]

This is to follow up on David Jones cam failure thread. It has been several years but I have had similar experiences with cam failure in years past. One thing I have noticed over the years on all the hotrod pontiac engines I have run is they tend to have a lot of valve train noise when the are cold.
Getting away from the valve lash issue for a second I have done some experimenting with multi viscosity oils and have made an interesting discovery. Years ago I ran 10w40s and 2w50s. More recently in my latest engine I have used 10w30. In the last oil change at a friends urging I switched to 5W30. Now I have been running Mobile1 since this engine was put together and continue to this day to use Mobile1. Also I have had the valley pan off acouple of times in the last year and every thing continuses to lookk good. But here is the interesting part. Even with the 10w30 I had valve train racket when the engine was cold. When I switched to the 5w30 the noise decrease was substantial. My warm idle oil pressure doesnt seem to have changeed much if any. I ususally see about 18-20 psi at a 800 rpm idle comming off the interstate, and about 50-55 at cruise at 1900rpms. The cruise oill pressure didnt change either. So far I am very please with the thinner cold number in my mobile1. Obviously when I change the oil in the spring I will probably change back to the 10w30 but so far the 5w30 has been a pleasent improvement for me.
What do the rest of you think, has any one else tried such a thin oil in the winter in a 455 and what was the result?

[FirebirdDave]

This is to follow up on David Jones cam failure thread. It has been several years but I have had similar experiences with cam failure in years past. One thing I have noticed over the years on all the hotrod pontiac engines I have run is they tend to have a lot of valve train noise when the are cold.
Getting away from the valve lash issue for a second I have done some experimenting with multi viscosity oils and have made an interesting discovery. Years ago I ran 10w40s and 2w50s. More recently in my latest engine I have used 10w30. In the last oil change at a friends urging I switched to 5W30. Now I have been running Mobile1 since this engine was put together and continue to this day to use Mobile1. Also I have had the valley pan off acouple of times in the last year and every thing continuses to lookk good. But here is the interesting part. Even with the 10w30 I had valve train racket when the engine was cold. When I switched to the 5w30 the noise decrease was substantial. My warm idle oil pressure doesnt seem to have changeed much if any. I ususally see about 18-20 psi at a 800 rpm idle comming off the interstate, and about 50-55 at cruise at 1900rpms. The cruise oill pressure didnt change either. So far I am very please with the thinner cold number in my mobile1. Obviously when I change the oil in the spring I will probably change back to the 10w30 but so far the 5w30 has been a pleasent improvement for me.
What do the rest of you think, has any one else tried such a thin oil in the winter in a 455 and what was the result?

[screamingchief]

If you read the links that have been posted it explains why this is so,the part on multi viscosity oil should be an eye opener for all,this has to do with the amount of friction modifiers added to gain a given rating,the 5w30 use less modifiers to gain thier rating than say a 10w40 making it much more "stable",the greater the spread between the lower and upper weight the more modifiers needed to be added.This is why diesel engines pretty much use 15w40,which is awesome oil for warmer climates in a gas motor,but sucks in cold weather,I found this out when I lived in wisconsin,had a mercury linx wagon that had crank noise on start up,so I used 15w40 and it cleared up,then one dec. morning it got cold,really cold, and it would hardly turn over, the battery was toast and I had to push it in the garage,turn on a heater and change oil to get it to start.Hell they use 5w30 in nascar motors and it'll live but pretty much this is something we each choose on our own,I will continue following cam co.s break-in recommendations to the letter as I have not had a cam failure yet (knock on wood) and after break-in use the oils I always have.

[David Jones]

Dave, in my cam failure thread you noted a change to a hydraulic roller cam. Was it noisy @ startup with the 10w/30, 10w/40 etc oils you used? What brand cam and lifters is it? I notice extra valve train noise at cold start-up with my car also. I've never run 5w/30 but have noticed that the noisy period with 20w/50 was louder and longer than any other oil I used. I put that off to it being thicker and harder to pump through the system when cold. Did you find the Mobil 1 caused or increased any oil leaks?

[gtoformula]

Late model cars have extremely tight engine tolerances to reduce engine emissions (crevices and pockets create unburned hydrocarbons). The bearing tolerances are tighter too. The theory regarding oil is that it is better to have it there than to have it thicker. Heavier oil may subdue hot, larger tolerances, but the thin stuff gets to the parts that need the lubrication and the tight tolerances result in a general loss of noise transfer. Synthetic oil also tends to stick to the parts better. On start up there is more of it where it is needed which helps to reduce noise and engine wear. I run synthetic in all my cars for just that reason. Between the limited starts/driving that the classics see and the short distance driving that my wife's car sees it protects better than "mother nature" oil.

[screamingchief]

But NONE of the cam makers will warranty a cam broken in using sythetics,after the cam (or a fresh engine) is broken in it is fine to use,synthetics actually work too good for any parts that have metal to metal contact to allow proper break-in,they will not allow a proper wear pattern to form on mating parts.Every gear company I've come across recommends using std gear oil for breaking in gearsets for this very reason.

[FirebirdDave]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Jones:
Dave, in my cam failure thread you noted a change to a hydraulic roller cam. Was it noisy @ startup with the 10w/30, 10w/40 etc oils you used? What brand cam and lifters is it? I notice extra valve train noise at cold start-up with my car also. I've never run 5w/30 but have noticed that the noisy period with 20w/50 was louder and longer than any other oil I used. I put that off to it being thicker and harder to pump through the system when cold. Did you find the Mobil 1 caused or increased any oil leaks? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
David you are asking 3 questions noise of the roller cam first. I do think the hydraulic roller is a little more noisy than the flat tapets I have run in the past. Im not sure about why in my case this was the most radical cam I have ever run so that may contribute to that noise.
I am running a comp XHR288 cam and the comp cams hydraulic roller lifters. I used to run the 20W50 and that stuff is so thick it is certianly the most noisy because its so thick.
As far as oil leaks I have been very luck on this lattest engine. I have had problems inthe past with the Mobile1 and the rear seal, not this time though. Some folks swear buy Royal Purple saying it tends to stay in the engine better than the equivelent Mobile1. I did find I semmd to leak less when I ran it but its more expensive and as I said Im not having any problems right now with oil leaks.

[FirebirdDave]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by screamingchief:
But NONE of the cam makers will warranty a cam broken in using sythetics,after the cam (or a fresh engine) is broken in it is fine to use,synthetics actually work too good for any parts that have metal to metal contact to allow proper break-in,they will not allow a proper wear pattern to form on mating parts.Every gear company I've come across recommends using std gear oil for breaking in gearsets for this very reason. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you completely. Thank goodness I have gone over to a Hydraulic Roller and dont have those cam break in issues now.

[screamingchief]

Does make life a little easier does'nt it.

[uneasyrider]

Lube-Tips Newsletter [mailto:[email protected]]

Above is a handy little news letter I used to get when I was working with pumps. I still get it because it contains good general application information about lubrication. Below is a rules of thumb that was posted in the news letter for cold weather (actually any temp.).

"The pour point is the lowest temperature at which an oil will flow. This property is crucial for oils that must flow at low temperatures. A commonly used rule of thumb when selecting oils is to ensure that the pour point is at least 10 degrees C (20 degrees F) below the lowest anticipated ambient temperature."

So going off of that it's just as we all know as it gets colder you need to lower that first number on the multi-vis oils and as it gets hotter it needs to come up. In a nut shell, if the viscosity is to high for the oil to "poor" (bottom number i.e. 5W, 10W, etc.) it wont flow on startup and the oil wont get through the engine fast enough, if it's to low on the second number (30W, 40W, etc.) it wont protect when it's hot. If you guys running in the colder areas it very important to look at that bottom number in the winter.

Another thing to remember is that your oil pressure is very critical to bearing life, going to low or to HIGH can cause premature bearing failure. To low and the oil wont get there to lube and cool things and to high it starts eating up bearings and blowing seals. Everyone jumps on the high volume oil pumps. Not always a good idea! For example: If you look in any old Chilton's manual you will see that up until 1970 Chevy ran oil pressures as high as 62lbs but in 1971 the oil pressures drop to 40lbs across the board. That is because after extensive testing Chevy found that the higher pressure was actually wearing the bearings out to fast. If they lowered the pressure they still got the protection required and increased bearing life on top of that. Remember that it isn't really the pressure that keeps your engine safe it is the ability for the oil to resist breaking down under shear load and heat. I have seen a GREAT example of this when two of my buddies got an old Ford Galaxy for $50 bucks and after beating the crap out of it on the farm for a few days put the rear axle up on jack stands, started the car, put a brick on the throttle, and let the car run until it died. It took 2hrs at WOT and on top of that they had drained the oil first! That was COOL!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by screamingchief:
But NONE of the cam makers will warranty a cam broken in using sythetics,after the cam (or a fresh engine) is broken in it is fine to use,synthetics actually work too good for any parts that have metal to metal contact to allow proper break-in,they will not allow a proper wear pattern to form on mating parts.Every gear company I've come across recommends using std gear oil for breaking in gearsets for this very reason.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is very true. If your breaking in an engine a good rule of thumb is to use a straight 30W oil. This will let the parts "lap" in. Of course follow the cam manufacturers break-in procedure to the tee! After the engine is broken in you can use the synthetics or whatever your choice is.

Here is a little tid bit of info. The guy that is doing the work on my car has a chassis dyno. His son did a little experimant one day and put Mobile on in his 2002 Z28 (that's what he normally ran) and than ran it on the dyno. He pulled the car off the dyno and changed the oil to Royal Purple and put it back on and tested it again and gained 2hp. I have seen this kind of test done on TV of course but and I always wonder about seeing a 2hp gain on a chassis dyno. I would think that was SO FAR inside the margin of error on that machine that you wouldn't know if there really was a change.

Uneasyrider

[Z Code 400]

Just a side note from experience....Running 351C and 429 Fords very high rpm in a couple of racing classes, dictaes the need for very high oil pressures, upwards of 100 psi hot.

This is due to the very large journals and high bearing speeds associated with the Ford engines.

You might be interested to know that if you have the correct part number, the 100 psi spring is still available from Ford and if not, Moroso still offers it today.

Case in point: I have run 429 Fords well above 7500 rpm with 125 psi startup pressures and drove them on the street in this condition. One in my wife's 1972 Torino went 80,000 miles before the distributor drive gear started showing a good deal of wear.

I did a full teardown and freshened the engine as a matter of course and the bearings looked like brand new throughout the engine.

If oil is clean, that is free of abrasive particles, it will cause no bearing wear.

The reason you saw a drop in GM oil pressures after 1970 was the reduction in horsepower production.

The only difference between the oil pump in a Z-28 and a regular 350 was the relief spring. The 65 psi springs are still available over the counter from any GM dealer...Robert

[Z Code 400]

Climatic conditions have the greatest effect on oil selection. I spoke to an engineer at GM once and asked him about the industry-wide switch to 5w30 oils.

After all, when you hear the claim that the newer engines are built with tighter tolerances, you really have to stop and think about it. The 3" crank in my 413 had only about .0020" oil clearance when measured on assembly. How much tighter could you (or would you) want to run a rod bearing???

During our conversation, he informed me the clearance issue was not factual and in fact, even modern engines have relatively the same clearances, inch for inch of journal diameter, as most older engines had.

He claimed the switch to 5w30 was simply because the factory wanted the vehicles ready for sale and use in the coldest possible climates and the reduced fluid friction of the 5w30 had an effect on CAFE standards.

He was also quick to caution matching the oil to the climatic conditions in areas where temperatures run very, very high and he personally preferred 15w40 because he felt it was very close to 'perfect' in terms of balanced viscosity over a broad range of operating conditions.

I have not experienced any startup noise on V8's with 20w50 oils. here in central California, we are over 100 degrees in the summer and never much below 34 degrees in the winter, so our oil selection criteria doesn't have to be quite so critical.

Thought this might be interesting...Robert

[uneasyrider]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...He was also quick to caution matching the oil to the climatic conditions in areas where temperatures run very, very high and he personally preferred 15w40 because he felt it was very close to 'perfect' in terms of balanced viscosity over a broad range of operating conditions... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know that back in the '70's that was one of the reasons the industry went to 10w-40. That is my personal favorite "generic" all weather weight. Back when I was taking classes in diesel and heavy equipment mechanics I had an instructor that loved straight weight oils and swore by changing your oil to match the seasons. He said (back then of course) that the multi-vis oils tended to get dirty faster do to the properties of the chemical mix needed to make it multi-vis. He told us where he got his info back then but after 20yrs I can't remember and who knows if it would even hold true today (that is if it even did then ). I had my chemistry teacher tell us that "motor oil" is probably the most studied and highly developed chemical on the market. That kind'a goes along with what another of my diesel instructors told me back then. He said that as a rule of thumb that adding more addatives to your oil is more critical than addatives to gas. That is if you by an aftermarket oil addative it can potentially screw up the highly developed chemical balance in the engine oil where as a gas addative will just get burnt through and is less likely to cause long term problems if it's somehow incompatable with the gas then if an oil addative is incompatable with the oil you are using. Mostly what it comes down to is you're better off sticking with name brand oil addative than experimenting you might say. He also went into all the reasons why STP was bad and I can't remember now but I do know that about three cans of it sure quieted up my old Valiant before I sold it. Ooops, did I say that?!

Uneasyrider

[buwalda]

The reason the modern engines use thinner oil can be stated in one word: efficiency. Efficiency all the way down the line.
Tighter clearances require less oil; less oil requires lower operating oil pressure & less volume of oil; less oil pressure means less hp to drive the oil pump; less hp to drive the pump means more hp to the wheels & less fuel used doing it. Same deal with electric cooling fans; they require a larger alternator, but overall they consume less hp than a mechanical fan. More hp to the wheels plus saving fuel. It is all for efficiency.
As far as start-up lifter noise is concerned, I believe it is a two edged sword. If the lifters have bled down, thin oil should pump them up quicker; but the thin oil is also more likely to bleed down the lifters after shut down.
I use 10w/50 oil & often don't fire up my 455 for 2 weeks. It fires instantly & I NEVER have any start up lifter noise. Didn't have start up noise either when I used the same brand 15w/60 oil. This the great Penrite oil. No friction modifiers in it AND it has Zinc D/T phoshate in it.

[Region Warrior]

gtoformula, if you want sticky oil, try Pensoil 20-50 Racing formula. its like motor honey. from what i read by most oil manufactors plus experienced in 30yrs, synthetics are less sticky which make them flow better. BUT what really makes them good is thier ability to withstand heat, plus they dont break down as quickly from contaminates. also, the wider the viscosity, the quicker an oil will brake down. GM's oil is made by mobil. -5w20 mobil 1 is already being marketed as the next step.

[buwalda]

Quote from PONCHOSHOP:

"the wider the viscosity, the quicker an oil will brake down."

Where has this been tested & can you direct me & other inquiring minds to the info?

Mobil One 5w-50 has one of the widest viscosity ranges in the industry & has an excellent reputation.

[Region Warrior]

of course oils are better now. not sure if GM's archives go back far enough(80's), or shortly after 10w40 came out. i will try to find it. an independent company tested all the major brand motor oils for GM, they probly still do this. most all multi-vis oils pasted thier minumum tests, except 10w40(none passed). it also stated the wider multi-vis oils broke down quicker then straight wieghts, but not really a concern if regular change intervals were followed. GM did not publicize this to the public, it was a service bullitin, recommending not to use 10w40 in any gasoline vehicles and change oil earlier if multi-vis oils where used. i have read elsewere on the subject, maybe even here. now for my personal experience, i have helped a race engine builder tear down/build engines on & off for 20 yrs. the straight wieght engines "most" always have the least amount of wear. he always recommends 30w & or synthetic blends after break-in.

[uneasyrider]

WOW PONCHOSHOP, that goes right along with what my diesel mechanics instructor told me back in 1984! COOL! So he must have heard that from the service bulliton. I remember now him saying that 10w-40 was the worst. WOW that was 20yrs ago I heard that.

Uneasyrider

[screamingchief]

These were from another thread I was watching/posting(refered to them earlier) on one is linked from crower(first one) and the other someone else posted gets right to the heart of these issues. oil link link no.2oil link too They get a little technical but have a lot of good info.

[Lapham3]

All good info. Another thought-I'm in the north country and like to use block heaters in my stuff. I plug in a couple hours before a cold start, and especially when the cars been sitting for weeks/months. The heater generally gets the engine to 100-125 degrees, and that's a big help before cranking up