[Mr. P-Body]

I have to agree with Ken. Cudos to Bob and Frank. And to Joe, I can relate! I've been in my own business for 4 years now. It's grown consistently over that time. This doesn't mean I've been building engines for 4 years. More like 30. I worked for others, like Joe. Nobody ever heard of me, either. At least until recently... Jim Hand's book has helped that a bit.

There is the perception that we (all engine builders) make ALL the money, and have gleaming shops like Don Prudhome or Childress Racing. 'Taint so... The point about return-on-investment cannot be overstated. For a project of this magnitude, the profit, if it EVER materializes, will not be as much as people outside the "business" believe it will be.

Scott's questions are all valid, though his tone may take away from the focus of those questions. Not because they're not good, but because people tend to pay more attention to the delivery, than the message. Joe may be a bit defensive in his tone, but again, I can relate.

Ken Keefer said it best in a conversation we had a couple weeks ago, discussing a supercharged deal. "It's amazing how many experts there are in our field, that have never worked in our field". This doesn't mean an ammetuer can't be an expert (Jim Hand, case-in-point). But it does mean, we that do it every day for a living, might have a slight edge... If you (anyone) don't think you can learn from me, you're absolutely right! Not because I don't know what I'm talking about, but because you simply aren't going to listen. I know, myself, I can learn from anyone!

Now you guys play nice!!!

[Ken -Ace- Brewer]

I say good goin to Bob & Frank & Don. Never heard of Joe(Just kidding)LOL. I KNOW how hard it is now to bring a new product out to the public! It seems like FOREVER we have been waiting for our new intake. And trust me it will be worth the wait! And it IS realy happening! My qualifications? 20 years of building and racing Pontiacs and 10 1/2 yrs owning Pacific Performance Racing.
I look forward to hearing more about these new heads!
Be Cool,

http://pacificperformanceracing.com

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Mr . P Body. The phrase that was told to me by a major well know engine builder was...........

<span class="ev_code_RED">It's amazing that people know more or as much as an engine builder and do something else for a Full time job. </span>

[Rob]

As someone that has seen most of the highest HP Pontiac cylinder heads; I'm curious about the valve guide spacing, Rockershaft setup, Pushrod clearance at bottom corners of intake ports and at the valve cover, and if the new 4.410? cometic gasket holds fairly well with two exhaust ports side by side in the center, what IN & EX valve size choices are possible. We could see a 2.500" intake valve and 1.82" exhaust sizing with .030" between the valves and cylinder walls.

In any case I've seen Scott's "Pontiac Racing Program" evolve the last 8 years or so. He holds nearly all of the "on motor" Pontiac engine performance and track records. The greatest accomplishment possible for DCI tiger/All Pontiac head will be improved performance with a larger quantity of product.

Looks to me that Scott's post makes it pretty clear what any "hype" being generated around products and any engine builders have to actually out perform. There's no doubt Scott Rex is interested in progress with Pontiac Engine building, he's just pointing out where the the cutting edge is at right now.

-Rob "the serrated edge of pontiac engine building" Pietrzak

[Ken -Ace- Brewer]

So true Ken!! So true!! LOL
Be Cool,

[Herb Hagan]

Scott made very valid points. As for the time slip pic, I believe that IS proof of his expertise in the area of N/A Pure Pontiac Performance and also to let you know that he is not just another bulletin board tire kicker

Herb

[PONTIAC DUDE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ken Brewer:
So true Ken!! So true!! LOL
Be Cool, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rob, just because the other shops or businesses don't run or have the car that makes The hp in a Particular class or venue, doesn't mean they can't.

Times have changed in the Machine shop arena.
Used to be able to make money on parts and labor to make a living. But with wholesale houses, the profit is now nill. And machine shop prices have stayed the same over 20 years while equipment, replacement cost, upkeep and helps wages have gone up.

It's a lot easier to have a job outside the machine shop business and take that money to race then it is to have the equipment available but have to work with a lot lower business profit margin and play.

Not bitching, just stating facts that I know others in the field can verify.

Once again, I hope this head, and I have heard first hand good reports, that it does what it is supposed to do. And with Bob & Frank in the mix........... they don't cut corners or allow defects or poor quality to go on for-ever un corrected.

[Mr. P-Body]

Just to clear the air, it was NOT my intent to cast any doubt on Scott's expertise, OR his opinion. I simply wanted to share my view of the discussion. Scott is absolutely a GOOD Pontiac guy! I also wanted to illustrate how something can get misunderstood or misconstrued. We battle myth and superstition every day. And if you think it's bad here, you should deal with the Chevy boys! There are still people out there convinced the old "double hump" 327 heads are the best small block head around. They were obsolete in 1969...

[ventura7211]

"There are still people out there convinced the old "double hump" 327 heads are the best small block head around."

Hey lets keep that on the downlow, some of us like getting good money for these heads, lol. Its about the equivalent 670 or 6x head to the pontiac guys.

Bob: Any pics of the new heads your talking about? Did you guys remove the "fins" from the tops of the exhaust ports? I never really cared for those.

Scott: is your avatar a pic of a new car? your car maybe?

Joe: Longest single reply I've ever read.

Rob: good questions

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Jim......... shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
I still get good money for them at swap meets and these rednecks down hear actually spend more fixin them then what a good set of W.P. heads would cost, NEW. LOL.
Got about 4 sets of those 461/462 heads tucked away. LOL.
Anybody want a set of these RARE Double hump heads.

I intent of this post was to show another new product hitting the market with great prospects.

Nobody is taking away the fact of Scott's ability to tune and build a Fast Pontiac Powered Race Car.


Probably time to lock the thread as the post on a new product has been posted and all that will result from here is retoric and controversy.

[John Bailey (GTOKID)]

I think The point Scott is making is...If we had a Known Expert's opinion on the heads is carries more weight. If Tony Bishoff, Nunzi, Or say Larry Woodward... gave a thumbs up we would be more excited. We are VERY EXCITED about all of All Pontiac's new products! I hope to test a new Block soon....And Have been trying to get a new BOP intake to try... Things age looking bright for the Pontiacs!!! Now we just need to see if the NMCA lets the new parts run in ProStock and at what weight...

[rumair]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GTOKID:
Now we just need to see if the NMCA lets the new parts run in ProStock and at what weight... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

joh- correct me if i'm wrong, but they don't allow wideports (heads with the pushrods moved over) in that class, right?

[John Langer]

we can run any edelbrock, wenzler series 2 (not super chiefs), or oem head. The reason that we cant run the super chief is becasue it does not have a stocl valve angle and does not have a conventional port layout. Unless the "new head" fits these parameters, they will not be allowed in PRO stock or extreme street. They would be allowed in real street

[BVR421]

"Probably time to lock the thread as the post on a new product has been posted and all that will result from here is retoric and controversy."
--------------------------------------------------
What? once the vendor of a (possible) new and improved product has advertised it in a public forum and the sycophants have ohhed and awe'd and sung praises, the questions and discussions should stop?
Maybe thats the definion of "tirekickers", people who keep their wallet in their pocket until they can see the color of the Emperor's clothes.
I love these internet forums, so many varied personalities and points of view.

[rumair]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Langer:
They would be allowed in real street <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hehe...i wonder what the chebby and furd boys would say if they knew it was possible bruce could show up at some point next season with a head that flows ~30~+ cfm more than what he has now.

i can already hear them crying...

[Jim Yanoski]

If Scott came off a little brash, I'm sure it was with a good reason. The phrase speak softly and carry a big stick can be directed to Scott. Usually a fairly humble man, I can see why it annoyed Scott at what Joe posted. Scott is at the race track weekly and at the shop probably every night trying to go faster. The countless hours of his dedication, money, and sacrifice is what ticked Scott off it think!

Although qualified as an engine builder Joe, it is hard to make predictions without having any proof yet!!!!

Flow bench numbers are not enough!! Put them on a running engine first off, then get some number off the dyno, then last and most important, go to the race track and bring back a time slip!!! That is what a think Scott is talking about! The proof is in the pudding. Until someone brings hard proof to the table it should be only speculation that they will be better!! There are people on this board and in the Pontiac community that proved The Super Chiefs can make the POWER!!

I for one hope that it will be a better, (possibly) less expensive alternative to what it currently available!! I need a new direction to go......???

Good luck to you Joe in all you efforts to <span class="ev_code_RED">prove it</span> to the Pontiac community. It sounds to me that in your teaming with Bob and Frank, there will be a time slip is on the way!!

2005 sounds like it will be interesting.

[Herb Hagan]

Very well said Jim!

Point being, prove it and we will come (purchase). I am one that intentionally did not purchase new aluminum heads for the coming season due to all the talk about new heads coming to market. If there is a proven head for 500+ CID motors besides the SuperChief's, I will be considering them too for the new motor program. For now, I will gladly run Jack Gaydosh's old RA IV headed top end on the 462.

Hats off to the guy's like Scott, Jack, Jim, Bruce and John who dig deep into their pockets on a lot of unproven products in that elusive search for more power. This is also true with Bob and Frank @ AllPontiacs, who have really stepped up big time for the Pontiac community. It really does help guy's like myself save a lot of heartache, grief and potentially wasted $$$.

Thanks guy's your efforts are appreciated,
Herb

[Aaron Quinton]

Goatnad,

If your looking at a new race head, it would be worth holding out a bit longer to what comes out of the KRE camp in the next few months.

As far as the rest goes, performance talks and bull**** walks. As far I know, Scott Rex and KRE have made the big naturally aspirated numbers to date.

L8r,

Aaron

[mrdan7]

Just like everything else that has taken time to be developed by competent people, those who Race all out, & at all levels, can contribute.

Most of us who can, will eventually run the new DCI's with the IA2. (REMEMBER THIS POST)
Remember all the crap said about the IA2??? before it was ****DEVELOPED****??? I Will Run BOTH, this is what I call a RESPECTABLE-PONTIAC-STREET-MOTOR for my 1st build using this combo, again R & D.!

It's a Great deal for both All-Pontiac, & DCI. Yes everyone & their brother will tweak them for their combo, & CNC Tweak programs will abound. This is good for us all, if we can communicate, instead of fighting, as this Fails to advance we who run Pontiacs. Thats one reason why we have so many independants.I admire those who share information. Certain-Secrets are one thing,(Like-Cam-Specs) help is another.

I have worked for 30 years in R & D Automotive, back when many running today were fighting over whose bicycle was fastest, & have seen & worked on motors & equipment most here would never believe much less understand.(Up to 5 Million dollar, single projects at a crack, yes working for the Big-Boyz). So What! I learned allot at their expense, & got paid for it.

My hats off to the Quickest, JBP,Scott, Bruce,Arnie, and all the others that have helped us win in spite of great dis-advantages. The worst being the fact, Most-Pontiac guys will eat their own children, this is what hampers True Development for us Poncho Guys.
Let's face it we are hooked on Poncho's!

P.S. Not knowing me, is something I like to protect, I don't talk, Name drop individuals, Or judge(no-pun ment)LOL, others, but will share if I can. I have plenty to learn also, so if anyone has Tech info to share, I'm all ears. I have already raised all my Kids through College.I joined this Board to Glean Tech-Info,as well as receive help, and possibly give some where I can.

All Dinosaurs eventually become extinct, but have left behind their oil, I run that OIL IN MY PONTIAC!

<span class="ev_code_RED">MRDAN7 </span>

[Brian Baker]

For a SERIOUS head, when is someone going to come out with one that does not have siamesed runners on either end...you know, like a R.A. V?

I'm not saying copy the R.A. V port design, I'm just saying spread out the port layout in a similar fashion, and stick whatever port in there you want. It seems alot of R&D is being done to "work around" the siamesed intake port arrangement, and flow is limited as a result. Why not just go to a divorced port layout? At this level, who cares if more money is needed for a custom cam/valvetrain, intake and headers?