[David Jones]

Lets see.... I live in Alaska and I'm considering a 35 year old car for my soon to be 16 year old daughter. Whom I love dearly. I want her to be safe and warm at all times. During those long months of summer (3 weeks) she'll be out roaming the roads in a car that might get 12 mpg (8-10 realistically), has very few safety features and probably will lack something in the reliability dept. Then we have winter time (49 weeks). Traction in the snow. None. Cold cranking ability. Suspect. Windshield wipers. Frozen. $5000.00 on a motor? Buy the girl a low mileage front wheel drive car with some air bags and seat belts and a place to plug in her cell phone. Fix the GTO for yourself to drive on those good days. Show her you love her, give her something boring and reliable. You won't be there all the time.

http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/DavidJones69GTO.html

[b-man]

You can keep the #16 heads if you dish the pistons to drop compression. I just figured head swapping might be easier, but it is not the only solution.

The #16 heads were stock for this engine, but remember that it was made to run on premium fuel that was available 'back in the day'. That same grade of fuel is not at your local filling station anymore.

Do you think your daughter will want to buy premium? If not then a drop in compression would be advised.

My '69 GP wasn't a super-fast car, but it wasn't a dog either. It had a nice shift kit in the trans (kinda violent actually) and it would chirp the tires (235/75-15 whitewalls) at 80 MPH when it shifted into 3rd gear on the freeway at full-throttle. I was impressed, for a stock 400 with 8.2:1 that got by on 87 octane it really ran good.

[WDCreech]

Bill, Didn't recieve any of your e-mails. I would have replied. They are having street car races, this coming Saturday afternoon. I'll probably go just to test and tune, but I will definately be at the strip on the 4th, 5th, & 6th (weather permitting). Stop by to say hello and look at the car. I have pit space #55, in the back row, about five spaces from the the pit gate booth.

Bill

[wlpsyp]

David... Good points. However, she already has a 2002 ford escape that is my daily driver right now. Hoping the GTO will get atleast 10 mpg so it will atleast out do my wifes car which is a Ford Excursion at 9.3mpg

b-man Whats the BEST thing to do? Replace the heads or put dishes in? Hell, I know she wont put premium in and I know honestly I wont either over time.

Bill I will come for atleast one of the days. Never been there and am looking forward to it. Getting engine fever... What time do the gates open/close?

So... would this be logical?

Disassemble the engine, clean it up. Take to a machine shop (along with the heads) for inspection and dipping/magna fluxing and to determine the boring then order a rebuild kit from????

Thanks AGAIN

Bill

_____________________________
http://home.gci.net/~wlpsyp1

It is not a problem.... It is just a blood pressure monitor.

[WDCreech]

David Jones, Apparently you don't read very well, or don't have very much retention! Bill said that the car would only be driven in the summer (a good four months). After seeing some of the pictures that were posted at one time, I would say that this will be a new condition 35 year old car.

Bill

[WDCreech]

Bill, The gates open at 8 am on Friday and Sunday, and 2 pm on Saturday.

Bill

[wlpsyp]

Just a FYI. This is the current state of her.

_____________________________
http://home.gci.net/~wlpsyp1

It is not a problem.... It is just a blood pressure monitor.

[b-man]

The best thing? If you run the #16 heads with dished pistons you will have the advantage of using heads you already have. A '68 GTO with the correct heads on it is a nice thing.

However if you run flat-top pistons with 6X-4 heads you have the option of swapping to a higher compression head later if you like. The 6X heads already have hardened exhaust seats from the factory for running unleaded fuel, the #16 heads do not (but they can be installed during the rebuild). Dished pistons will not allow you to up the compression as much later to a certain extent.

Both ways will work, your choice.

Wow, just saw the pic of your '68, gonna be quite a project!

Your daughter is very lucky to have a dad that is so dedicated to doing her project car up right like that. Good luck.

[David Jones]

Damn DduuBbbLllya Deee! Your 100% correct. Summer only. Right there on the screen. Guess my conservative, protective side popped out. I'm sure any 35 year old car can serve as completely reliable and very safe transportation for a 16 year old.

http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/DavidJones69GTO.html

[sscherin]

I'll go with B-man..

6X-4 heads so you can burn about anything..
the CR with 16's was ok in 1968 but they had much better gas back then.
Run a small factory cam or maybe a Com XE 262 grind.. It should work OK with the stock valve's so you won't have to dump a ton of $$ into the heads.

Now for the short block..

Don't cut corners here.. build it for what you want from the motor in the future.
That way when you want to go fast in the future the bottom end can handle it.

GURU: One who knows more jargon than you

Scott Schering
70 Firebird 455 12.34 @ 108.2
Http://www.pontiacs.org

[Blue '66]

3 weeks of summer David?LOL!Yes and everyone in Alaska lives in Igloos too!LOL!We lived in a 2 story Igloo when I lived in Fairbanks! Warm weather(above 75) is almost 3 months in Fairbanks,it's alittle cooler in Anchorage.


Save the Blue Bug!

[David Jones]

Is my mental picture in error? Of course I'm a cotton farmer and have slaves.

http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/DavidJones69GTO.html

[wlpsyp]

That looks like my house

So what I am gathering from all this great info is build the short block as strong as I can get it. Go with the 16 heads with dished pistons or preferably 6x-4 heads. stock to mild cam and a Q-jet or stick with the holley I have. If wrong please correct. Wanting to tear it down this weekend.

Does that sum it up? Should I look for a "kit" for the short block or go for particular parts from summit, jegs etc???? Also, with this type setup what can I expect to pay for all machine work and parts(ballpark)? As I said before we are wanting to assemble the engine.

Again thanks.

Bill

_____________________________
http://home.gci.net/~wlpsyp1

It is not a problem.... It is just a blood pressure monitor.

[David Jones]

wlpsyp, I hope your project comes together smoothly and your pretty daughter and yourself have fun working on it and enjoying it.

http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/DavidJones69GTO.html

[wlpsyp]

Thanks David,

We are enjoying ourselves and having a great time. Best thing is we are spending good quaility time together and learning together. It great. Thanks for your advice and insight

Bill

_____________________________
http://home.gci.net/~wlpsyp1

It is not a problem.... It is just a blood pressure monitor.

[Injunjoe]

My personal suggestion would be to build the bottom end the best you can. Good crank, rods, and pistons. Then later when she is ready you have a very potent bottom end in the engine and can focus on the real power producing parts, the cam and heads. You can have a really strong rotating assembly for about 1500 dollars minus your balancer and flexplate. PDude or any of the other guys can hook you up with one. As long as the bottom end is stout you can step up to almost any reasonable lelev when ever you decide to.

Example
4.21 inch stroke (or 4.25 if you want) 3 inch main crank

Crower Sportsman or Eagle H-Beam rods

SRP or Ross (Depending on how much you want to spend) Pistons.

After that its pretty much where ever you want to go with the car. Pull the heads off one winter and send them to Dave at SD or Ken at PPR or PDude , and let them do a little massaging on them while you arent driving it, after she has gotten used to the car for a while. That is what I believe I would do in your situation.

[rand68]

I probably have a unique perspective on this as I was in your daughter's position about 15 years ago. My Dad and I bought a 68 GTO HT for $700 and rebuilt it.

I won't insult your daughter by advising you to limit the power down. If you judge she's mature enough to handle it, then great.

For the short block I would concur with everyone else with one possible exception. I'd get new rods, and pistons. I probably wouldn't bother with forged pistons. They're more expensive than cast and not as thermally efficient as hyper-eutectic (modern cast) pistons and are somewhat heavier. All of which leads to they will give you less hp than the same setup with cast. Cast pistons are good up to about 1.3 hp/cu inch, which comes out to about 500 hp for a 400. I doubt if you're going to shoot for that kind of hp for your daughter. To improve octane tolerance and cooling I would zero-deck the block.

On the top side I would probably put the 16's off to the side and find some newer heads which will give you a more reasonable compression ratio and will already have hardened seats, and a few other nice features (like screw-in studs). If you're not a stickler for originality there is no reason to run the 16's. 4X's or 6X's off of a late model 400 should give you a reasonable CR with minimal trouble.

Keep the intake as the stock cast iron's are very good.

The carb oddly enough is an area that is hotly debated to almost a religious fervor. It boils down to preference. Square flange carbs (of any manufacture) are not as responsive and not as fuel-efficent as spread-bore carbs. Square flange typically produce better WOT (wide-open throttle) power. Holley's are easier to "tinker" with but have a reputation (earned or not, it has not been my experience) of being tempermental. Q-jets are a little more complicated for tuning (from what I've seen) but are excellent street carbs (spreadbore design). I run a spread-bore Holley and the current engine is very close to what you're probably going to build and I've gotten 26 mpg on the interstate going 70+ mph. I jetted down the primaries and jetted up the secondaries.

The cam is the heart of the engine, and everything else you do should work with it. I like Crower cams and I'd probably go with either a 60917 or a 60915. About any mild cam is going to work as the size of the engine is going to give you more power than about any other car she might encounter. Whatever you do, don't over-cam. Too big of a cam will lead to disappointment (been there, done that, got the t-shirt).

One thing I will say and I can't stress this enough, replace EVERYTHING. The only things I would reuse from the current engine are the block, the crank, and the head castings. I didn't when I built my first engine and I regretted it greatly later.

Bill
gearhead/computer geek (no the two are not mutually exclusive)

[sscherin]

Geez why did I space that.. you can get a complete 4.21 or 4.25" rotating assembly ready to go from most of the big pontiac guys for under $2000

You'll have a new crank, H beam rods, forged lightweight pistons, bearings and the balance job already done. A couple bucks more will get ya a new flexplace & balancer too.

compare that to having your crank turned, rods preped,buy rod bolts, rings, pistons, bearings then getting it all balanced.



you'll have a nice 455 inch motor that looks like a 400 to most people.
with the bigger cubes the 750 holley will be a good match.

slap on a set of 6X-4's and get 9 to 9.5 CR depending on bore size..

Even with a mild cam it'll be a fun little beast to drive.

Later on down the road get the heads ported and drop in a sold cam.. easy low 12s with the right tuning and drive train.

GURU: One who knows more jargon than you

Scott Schering
70 Firebird 455 12.34 @ 108.2
Http://www.pontiacs.org

[SupergasDil]

Man, You guys are boring . Since we are pretending I'm teaching my daughter the right way. She's gonna spank all y'alls butts . Street or strip with her Pontiac

[Blue '66]

LOL!David that tiny igloo would rent out for $500 a month. Where is the dog sled?


Save the Blue Bug!