[thirdgen455]

how hard is it to find one of these engines and how cheap can they be had?

how strong are the cranks in these?

what other diffrences is there between these engines and later pontiacs? I know the starter bolts to the bell housing, I have cured this in my mind by using a mid plate. will a later timing cover work? not worried about engine mounts since thinking of using plates. any other "problems"? heads bolt on right?

I'm thinking of keeping with a pontiac with my twin turbo idea. at one point I had decided to go cough cough chebby. BUT I REALLY WANT TO STAY PONTIAC! I like the bore/stroke of the 316 and rod/stoke ratio. I have also heard the blocks are strong. I like the smaller main size too.

Thanks Shad

[thirdgen455]

how hard is it to find one of these engines and how cheap can they be had?

how strong are the cranks in these?

what other diffrences is there between these engines and later pontiacs? I know the starter bolts to the bell housing, I have cured this in my mind by using a mid plate. will a later timing cover work? not worried about engine mounts since thinking of using plates. any other "problems"? heads bolt on right?

I'm thinking of keeping with a pontiac with my twin turbo idea. at one point I had decided to go cough cough chebby. BUT I REALLY WANT TO STAY PONTIAC! I like the bore/stroke of the 316 and rod/stoke ratio. I have also heard the blocks are strong. I like the smaller main size too.

Thanks Shad

[Steve Barcak]

Shad,
Yes there are some differences. Yes, these blocks are far overlooked for performance useage. Remember, forged cranks can be repaired and stroked/destroked properly by welding, changing the stroke by as much as 5/8" offset grinding done with the casr units everybody is playing with usualy chages it .050". It is not difficult to make over 400 inches with a 370 (even without welding) and reap the virtues of the stronger block, forged crank and smaller mains. You will need to research main bearing availability, it may be a problem. As far as head interchange. Any Pontiac head will fit any Pontiac block with no exceptions. There are differences but, they will fit. Remember that early motors were stud oilers and have an oil galley that goes up to the head. This must be plugged when using late heads to prevent hemeraging (an 1/8" pipe plug does the job just fine). Side motor mounts didn't arrive until 1959 but, like you stated, that is not a problem with motorplates. Timing cover interchange is not a problem. The flywheel pattern will need to be researched and may need some modifiing as well as the oil pump mounting.
Most Pontiac guys avoid these early motors because of some fabrication involved to fit late parts but, it is worth looking into. Personally, I wish I would have started playing with them sooner.
Some of my projects are based on the '59 and early '60 blocks as I am using 3" mains with displacements from 389 to 577 inches (all are blown /injected) although I have been working on an alum Ram Air V version and soon a billet version.
Depending on how long you have been into the hobby you may or may or may not be familiar with the brilliant minds of Craig Hendrickson and Kern Osterstock who formed H-O racing around 1974. These guys built (among other things) an animal 326 inch '65 Tempest ( based on a '56 316) that used Ram Air IV heads, a custom tunnel ram and they buzzed it to around 9,000 rpm I believe.
These men, overlooked when discussing Pontiac performance, did more as at least as much to promote Pontiac performance and development in the 70's. Then, they disappeared around 1981 when Ken Crocie bought the company (as best I know). Ken occasionally posts here. Ken, If you read this, do you know what ever happened to these 2 men? These guys have developed the early motors ('55-'58) further than anyone I have heard of.
Cam/lifter/dist interchange is not a problem either. Their are some other differences too I'm sure but, nothing that some effort and imagination could solve. This is really looking into. You can find and build a stash of early blocks by just looking for them. They are not considered valuable and they are around if you keep looking.
Shown is an older picture of one of my '59 blocks clearly showing the lateral stregthening rib that all earl

[This message was edited by Steve Barcak on August 20, 2003 at 02:31 AM.]

[Robert Williams]

Wilcap may be able to help you. They have an adapter kit for the 60-64 Pontiacs to any BOP or Chevy trans and it also uses a Mopar gear drive starter. I don't know if it will fit the 50's engines but they may help you out. The new adapter is on this page. http://www.wilcap.com/webdoc5.htm

Robert Williams

[fiedlerh]

Craig Hendrickson is now involved in collecting Packards.

www.1956packardpanther.com

Talk about going to the dark side!

http://fiedlerh.home.att.net/

[KEN CROCIE]

And Kern has an aerospace machine shop in so cal.

[thirdgen455]

The guy I work with had an uncle that raced pontiacs I think since day one. He passed away last year. but I think his son may still have a large stock pile of early blocks. I think this might be worth looking into. from what info I have read the rods are the same leanth and same big end size. the problem I do see is cam oiling. Am I right in thinking the rods helped oil the camshaft? this would make using newer H-beam rods out.... or would it?

anyway I think I will do more research and a see if any of those blocks are still around.

thanks guys
Shad

[Steve Barcak]

3rd gen. What are you talking about? Where have you read about a cam oiling problem? All Pontiac production rods (again except for 265/301) are dimensionally the same- .980 pin, 6.625 (6 5/8") center to center and use a 2.25" rod bearing. The oiling system is basically the same too (except for the before mentioned stud oiling). That's why I stated only the main bearings need to be looked into as far as bearings go. Let us know what you find out and what you end up doing, OK? I have every year Pontiac V-8 in my junk yard but, all the early ones (55-58) are still in cars so I can't readily look at the lower ends. I do have 1 '57 336 bare block sitting around, I'll look at the bottom of it and maybe take a pic. Many of you turbo nuts would benefit from the advantages of the early block/crank too with it's attractive rod/stroke ratio, high winding ability and forged crank. Food for thought.
Steve www.pontiacheaven.org

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Rod oiling.

Back in the day. Engineers thought that an oiling hole needed to be used to help oil the camshaft. Not realizing the drainage from the lifter valey, leakage from the lifter bores, oil from between the rods, counterweigh oil sling, etc, etc supplied more then enough oil. The later rods deleted this.

Also the oil hole in the rod can take supply and load caracteristics away from the bearing rod surfaces. I feel this was the reason people used the higher pressure pump and why early Pontiacs (before my time) might have had more oil related failures then most.
Along with the screwed up oil system supply design.

Owner of......The Quickest Pontiac Powered "REAL" Street car on the PLANET!!!!Will Race for Food.
Build it fast, build it right, build a Pontiac.

http://PontiacDude.cc

[thirdgen455]

so P-dude it was just deleated not redone the engine.

OK I understand now. it's just something I remember when looking at loder rods and didn't quite understand whym and wasn't sure if there was a diffrence. remember guys I'm only 26 and have limmited knowlage of some of the real old stuff.

I'm sure I will have more questions, but first I'll try and get my hands on one of these blocks first.

[Steve Barcak]

OK, Dudes reference is about the spurt holes in the rods. I knew that but, though you had asked about the oiling system in the block being different. I did go to my junk yard this morning and took some pics of that 336 block and the flywheel flange of a 370 crank. I'll post them here later when I get time. Steve www.pontiacheaven.org

[thirdgen455]

Steve don't feel bad. I was under the impression on the spurt holes was to way the cam was oiled. then I really started thinking about it and relized how it was.

Thanks for the help guys and Steve post up anything you can when you have time. I have the guys at the shop intrested in this project now.

[Steve Barcak]

Here is a pic of a 370 crank standing on its nose showing the flywheel flange with a late type flexplate sitting on it. The bolt pattern is the same, the register is different. I spacer could be made at a modest cost. That would solve that problem.

[Steve Barcak]

OOps. I didn't add the atachment, here's another try. Steve www.pontiacheaven.org

[Steve Barcak]

Next is a bottom end shot of a 336. For those who don't know, the 336 was a small bore version of the 347 used is GMCs. Note the strenthening rib that runs the length of the block like the SDs and Ram Air Vs. Few Pontiac people know about this (you're welcome). 1955-early 1960 is similiar.
Steve www.pontiacheaven.org

[Steve Barcak]

Here is one of my bottom ends I designed about 10 years ago based off of the early block. All billet steel w/6 bolt mains, crossbolted and designed modular so you can check bearings between rounds when needed. The 5 main caps are all tied together for strength and support each other. On the front is another of my designs that supports the snout and , thus, creating a 6th main bearing. Then an oil pan adapter was built and then the pan was designed and built. There are no gaskets, everything is O-ringed. I have studied most all other high HP engines ( Hemi, chev, fords, etc.) and, in my opinion, this is the strongest lower end on any engine.
Steve www.pontiacheaven.org

[Taff]

That's a nice girdle Steve. I'm going to use a girdle myself on my next blower motor, it will be built around a 2 bolt block and will tie the (machined flat) tops of the two bolt mains caps into the pan rails,thereby preventing the caps/studs from flexing front to back.All caps will now support each other. Kind of like the girdles the 5.0 Ford boys use but with side pieces for triangulation. I'm baseing it on a 2 bolt block because of their easy availability and low cost.I'll post some pics when it's all done,which will probably be next year as I've just started work (play?) on my tube chassis station wagon doorslammer.

[cjwilson99]

Any chance the earlier engines came with a forged crank. I can get my hands on a running 370 out of a pontiac hearse. I never actually considered this for a peformance block. But now you guys got me thinking. keep the info coming.

[Steve Barcak]

Yes, all Pontiac engines from '55-'58 came with forged cranks. I've heard of a few cases that were cast but, of the dozens I've seen they are all forged. It is easy to confirm, just look for the wide parting line and absence of sharp edges as in regular Pontiac castings. Even 389 forged can be found with some effort.
Tom S- Was it you that mentioned that you saw a 347 cast crank?
Steve www.pontiacheaven.org

[tom s]

not me,all the early ones I have seen were forged,I used a 57 forged crank to make my 303RAV short deck stroker crank.