[PONTIAC DUDE]

Better slow down and watch that mouth dude.....
You put you pants on the same way I do and don't need you using that tone with me.
I didn't slam ya or accuse you of anything, just asked why you would promote a product that is having problems when there are other alternatives and if I need to apply it to all products being sold?
Do I have to tear a Carter or Holley apart to make sure trash isn't in it? Or pitted? ETC.

I just posted that I feel that a product sold as "new" shouldn't have to be torn apart and checked. If a person is building a "Stock" engine, he shouldn't have to "TEAR IT APART".

Or for that matter, why should he have to tear it apart period!!!!!
I'm not talking a Race engine dude.
But it seems that your post about Melling oil pump problems backs up my statement about "POOR" quality control. Thanks.
If I see a problem, then I'm gonna inform people so if they want to use it, at least they were informed of possible problems.

Yes, If there is a clearance problem with the "Chinese" cranks, then I would also inform people. But haven't run into it.

BTW: they refused to cover a defective designed pump unit and other pumps. period. And if you want to go and use Melling pumps with small check balls, grit residue, pitting that a average person wouldn't know what to look for then go ahead and promote it dude.

Was that suppose to be a slam, because I haven't been racing and building Pontiacs All my life? Hahahahahahaha. Take your best shot, I'm a Big Boy.

And slam me about the amount of motor work I do?

Are you accusing me of shoddy work?

Hummmmmm, there's quite a few "New" people out there doing Pontiacs, are they included in your slamming of people cause they haven't worked on Pontiacs for 30+ years? Or is it just me?

Have a nice Freakin day. LOL.

[rasilverbird]

Whoa, LOTS of tension on the board here lately...are we not getting our share of racing in??? Everyone here better get to the local track this weekend, rag on your Pontiac for a few hours, and come back with a [img]smile.gif[/img] .

That being said, I take apart every oil pump I get before it's installed. I shouldn't have to, but I know damn well that other people don't care as much as I do, and things can get shoddy. I wish I had the equipment to do EVERYTHING myself, but I don't, so I have to check everything that's new, or been touched. I've had cam bearings installed crooked, burrs left at the bottom of cylinders, cam bearings cut to hell, and COUNTLESS new parts that needed some form of work.

Bottom line: No, we shouldn't have to check new parts, but that fact of the matter is, if you want it to work right, CHECK/DO IT YOURSELF!!!

[RPM]

How much of a GM, Ford, Mopar factory engine, excluding some speciality engines, assembly is actually done by hand anymore?

[Tim Corcoran]

Ken,

I am aware that you probably know more about the Pontiac engine than I ever will but what I am talking about is basic fluid dynamics and not advertising hype. Oil is a non compressable liquid. The oil pump in our beloved Pontiac engines is a positive displacement gear pump. What this means is for one revolution a specific amount of fluid is displaced. When you move the crankshaft in an engine one revolution the piston will travel a certain distance predetermined by the crankshaft stroke. The amount of fluid that is displaced in a positive displacement pump is determined by the size of the gears and the chamber. If you doubt this weld up the hole in the pressure relief valve and the output hole and try to turn a primed pump and you will either break the drive shaft or burst the chamber. The reason I said that the 3/4" inlet tube model pump may be more efficient than the 5/8" model is two fold, one being it may decrease driving force a small amount by relieving some restriction in the six inch long sunction tube, and it may reduce the leakage past the gears by a very minute amount. All positive displacement pumps do have some leakage past the gears even on a new pump. This leakage is a measure of the efficiency of the pump. All this aside the volume is still determined by the size of the gears and the speed that they are driven. I don't think these pumps come with a specification sheet that specifies the actual flow at given RPM's so we don't have that to compare. Now if you were to disassemble a "low volume" pump and a "high volume" pump, then took some measurements and found that the gears were taller or larger in diameter in the "high volume" pump, then I would agree that it is indeed a higher volume pump. Another method would be to test the flow output of the two pumps and make a comparison. Other than that you are basing your opinnion on advertising hype.

Tim Corcoran

[David Holmberg]

Hey Paul, How's the car coming?

[ June 09, 2002, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: David Holmberg ]

[Rashionality]

No maw...I ain't been drinkin again!

Jesus, someone needs to lay off the fire water for christ's sake.

[ June 07, 2002, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: Rashionality ]

[Brian Baker]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I thought all fluids were non-compressable?

[Blackcat]

I've built quite a few Pontiac engines over the years and have had 2 bad oil pumps in that time.
One failed after 4 months. Another had such low oil pressure I tore the engine apart to check and the clearences in the pump were junk. Put in another one and the engine had great pressure.
One was a sealed power and the other a Mellings.
So two out of 50 engines is not a good number.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Blackcat, This is exactly my point.

How many people check stuff when they are doing things. Very few..... and they trust the integrity of the manufacture...........and builder. Period.
Same applies to "ANY" product, whether it's automotive related or not.

Real World. Maybe sometimes people/builders/manufactures/etc get to far away from the public. Sorta like politicians. LOL.

I deal with working class people all day long. They come in and buy bearings, rings, gaskets, Speed Parts and just want to go home, install them and go.
Same applies with Parts houses and Discount Mail order places. They buy to use, not re-do what they paid for!!!!!
A lot of people don't even surf the web or even use computors that call or stop by the shop.
Many are just fixing their cars to get to work. How many times have I seen them pull the pan, replace the rod bearings and pump. Put it back together and then be ready to go to work on Monday.
How many people would know what to look for in a defect?
How many want to do it, let alone know what to inspect?

Undersize balls in a Melling Pump? Very interesting and a point that qualifies my statements on Quality control.

How many people have the capability to find this defect or to mic bearings or even check piston size, big end rod bore size, etc. Ya trust the shop. right?
To check aline bore?
This is in the "Street Part" section of the PY Forum. Not the race section.

A person has no way to check for bore if it was done with "Torque Plates" or while hot honing!!!!

Real World Time:
I trust that when I install or sell a Holley/BG or Carter carb out of the box on a Stock engine that the only adjustment I/they will need to do it the idle and the air/fuel adjustments. I hope all the parts are inside and assembled without trash or metal shavings. I know that the customer may or may not need to change some internal settings to apply to his combo. Maybe.

When I sell Engine parts, I'm trusting the integrity of the manufacture that he is producing a quality product that I want to use and am willing to sell.
I am putting my reputation along side with that product. I don't even want to tell the customer that he has to tear apart his pump and wash out the trash and maybe return it for another one if it's rusty inside or pitted. He will say, Why do you handle this and go elsewhere next time.
Discount or Mail Order houses aren't concerned with this. They can play the odds. They don't install, They buy in bulk or volume discount deals and they only go by feedback and the person working for them isn't going to "Pass it along". He doesn't care.

Here's only ONE example; The Moroso deep oil pan was produced for better then 5 years for Pontiacs(I really don't know for how long, I'm a NEWBE, LOL ) and was only available with a 5/8" pickup tube in their catologs.
They seem to make their pans at a odd depth so I couldn't locate another pickup to use with this pan. 1/2" instead of rounding it out to 8 or 9, what ever. My point is; I called to find out why in 1993
and was given the response........ Hummmmmm, We never hear that before and nobody ever complained before.
Maybe, Maybe not. I see that finally they are producing a 3/4" pickup. Did the guy on the phone take that long to tell the BOSS .
How would you use a Melling pump as they offered the M54DS and th M54F in 3/4" only. Hummmmmmm.

People trust my judgement and tell ya that in conversations when asking for advise and products. Period.
I don't need to hear about the product I'm selling in relation to a failure. No builder or Independent shop does.
How many times have I got a call about oil presuure problems and told them to change the pump or tear it apart.
I know that this is getting old, but If it ain't right, it ain't right.


Another Essay by Pontiac Dude. Hahahahahaha. but serious about product failures and quality control that shouldn't require the "Public" to Internally inspect Every oil pump made or produced to make sure that it's OK to use???

How many pumps does Melling produce every year?

I'm off my soap box now. LOL.
The buck stops here.

[cpetrice]

I agree. If I by something NEW,I expect to put it on and go,none of the tear it apart to check bs.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Ahem,

I've been thorough on this matter before...here it comes again:

The best poncho oil pumps are used ones that have been gone through, have 3/4"pickups with a fully screened inlet, and the pressure relief that you desire to match your TOP-END oiling desires. Pick a cast iron bottom plate for good wear patterns.

No such Hi-Vol pumps...they're all same volume for poncho...until you dig for a custom pump.

Oil pumpimg capacity is never utilized during operation of healthy bearing clearances...during cruise RPM, about 70% of the pumped oil is circulated back inside the pump through the Pressure relief valve. Poncho oil pumps are of the Roots positive displacement pump design....they can "Hydrolock" even with the oil bypass relief...if the gears were made larger.

No such friction reduction for higher oil pressure...the crank and rods have the same turning friction (drag) from 10PSI to 100PSI...until the Centrifugal RPM is reached to starve the rods of an oil head. Some folks spin the motors past 6500RPM, so will warrant an 80PSI pump for added assurance of a >10PSI dynamic oil head at the rod bearings.

Yet, the higher pressure, and looser Rod clearances show an improved THERMAL cooling effect, for hot pistons conducting to the rods, then the crank. More oil means more heat removal during sustained highway cruise. So, an Oil cooler is useful.

The oil pump load at the cam's end allows for torsional damping for almost decent distributor operation..Pump location fine...Distributor location not fine....Rear crank trigger (flexplate or flywheel) or non-mechanical (electronic) timing advance is useful.

The oil pumps are as good as the sump supply. When any of your favorite oil pumps suck air, the pressure does not go down much, if your bearing clearances are toght. Loose clearances will show the pumped-air leak rate. My motor would show 40PSI at highway while sucking oil foam FOR 45MINUTES at 65MPH. I GOT FOOLED.....TWICE IN 5 years.

Well, now my motor oil pressure will show ZERO PSI upon sucking air. So, I MUST do the teardown and inspect cam bearings and rod bearings...something gave way despite running strong and holding pressure during nomal floggings.

Have a nice day.

H.I. Stud

[Goatman]

Originally posted by Cpetrice:
I agree. If I by something NEW,I expect to put it on and go,none of the tear it apart to check bs.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Quickest way to have a disaster. Always check your rod length, piston diameter, valve clearances, degree your cam, oil pump, and bearing clearances, among other things.

All of these things are considered as normal inspection when you put together a motor. Gee, its funny, they're all new parts..............Why would you check those?

[Wade Congdon]

I personally subscribe to the school of check EVERYTHING yourself or you have only yourself to blame for any problems. The flaw in this theory is that not everyone is capable of checking things themselves. In this case they rely on the experts or builders to do it for them. I'm sure PDude does an excellent job of checking things, he obviously has disassembled these pumps or he wouldn't have found the problems in the first place. I think there is a fine line between what Tom V is saying and what PDude is saying. New parts often need to be checked and adjusted for application or geography, but one would not expect to find defects, dirt/rust, etc in new parts. Being a mechanical engineer, I agree with what Tim says about volume capacity being a function of the gear diameter and length. If replacing a 5/8 tube with a 3/4 tube increased volume, then the 5/8 tube was undersized in the first place. The pump that Butler was/is selling had taller gears and thus increased volume. I believe Marty had designed this at one point. Unsubstantiated Rumors said there were problems with this design. I have no experience with this pump. The Titan pump uses a gerotor, which is more efficient than gears. Unfortunately the Titan pump is expensive ($600 plus last time I checked) and does require modifications to the oil pan because they used pieces from other makes. We (BOP) have been working on a gerotor pump that would require no mods and cost maybe in the $200 range. Does anyone think there would be a market for something like this? IF so let us know via email or in this post. [img]smile.gif[/img]

As I composed this I just read HI Stud’s response, very thorough and informative as usual. Agree with his comments on “Hydro loc”, may be an issue for the tall gear pump. I also like his assessment of the distributor drive location. “The oil pump load at the cam's end allows for torsional damping for almost decent distributor operation” That’s just another reason many high end racers use a front belt drive distributor.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Goatman, Wade.
If you are building a "Stock" engine why bother degree'in the cam?
This is the Street forum. Or mild RV types. Bolt it in and go.
Think about the average guy just freshing up his motor. Or a weekend quick fix.
I'm not talking a RACE or STREET STRIP deal here. They sell pumps for all Pontiac applications. Period.

Wade,
It's Street dude that has basic qualifications and is buying and installing a product.
Not even on the boards or has access to information such as this.
An average dude on a weekend fix.

Would you sell a pump that has the above conditions? And repeatability. How long before the Nay Sayers would hang you out to dry?
Visual inspection,Yes.
Internal NO. for the basic home rebuilder.

And If you are a home builder, why do you need to go out and buy mics, dial indicators, degree wheels, etc for a $1000.00/$1200.00 rebuild!!!! You'd have more in the equipment then the parts. LOL.

I do agree with people "visually checking" all external parts for wear, length, basic sizing as stated on the parts and for pre-fit.
But to have to tear a "NEW" assembled oil pump apart for a basic stock street application. No. That's what my post is about.
If you want, go ahead, but it shouldn't be a pre-requiset before installing a Melling pump or any pump on a stock type rebuild.
For a higher dollar Race or Street/Strip application, Yes. Only because I want to make sure it will handle the abuse of more hp and load. Not to clean trash out of the pump or find that I have to send it back because of rust and pitting.

Your going to tell me that "John Q Public" has the knowledge to determine the Ball size on a Pontiac Pump?
And know how much to "Torque" the tapered nut that holds the spring?
The ability to check the spring tension before an install?

I have pulled pickup tubes from Melling out of a sealed box that were so rusty you couldn't find a clean spot, right in front of a customer, kinda embarrasing.

Hope others have better luck.

And all Cpetrice wanted to know was the difference between a regular and high pressure pump. Hahahaahahahahahahaha.

[ June 07, 2002, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: PONTIAC DUDE ]

[Goatman]

Originally posted by PONTIAC DUDE:
[QB]Goatman, Wade.
If you are building a "Stock" engine why bother degree'in the cam? This is the Street forum. Or mild RV types. Bolt it in and go. [QB]

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ken, I agree on your other points, but you can get the wrong cam in the box (or crank, or pistons, or.....). If your piston to valve clearance is close to start with, then you put a cam in that's bigger than what you ordered....you know the rest. I personally have had a cam sent to me that was bent slightly! It happens and people make mistakes. That's all I need to know to now go out and make usre it doesn't happen to me.

Not everyone can or will do these things, but they all should. Its just good sense. I pay Indain Adventures to do my motors because of things like this and 1000's more that I don't know about. I'm sure you are in the same boat with a majority of your customers.

You and Tom Vaught both have made good points in certain areas, as have others. But, I wouldn't feel comfortable not checking my motor from top to bottom, even on a street application any more. There are just too many things to worry about.

[Roger C]

WOW !!!! Thats all I can say,I think we all know if were gonna take an engine apart your gonna have to inspect somethings and take some measurements.As far as taking an oil pump apart I didnt until I ate my first one which happened to be a melling on a SBF(Too lil gear to cover clearance),So now I check every pump everytime,whats that saying ,burn me once shame on me.........I can see what both sides are saying here in this awesome debate but the FACT of the matter is EXPERIENCE/KNOWLEDGE is the only thing everyone builds their engines on. If Joe Schmoo wants to build his street engine blindly(not checking parts)then so be it,he will eventually get burned by a parts failure do to manufacturer error or just flat out the wrong part.But thats what seperates ordering an engine from Ken or Dick OR anyone else ,hes paying them to check the details.
Atleast thats my take on this subject,,Oh by the way PDUDE which pump are you endorsing now?
Later,
Roger

[cpetrice]

Goatman. I always check the basic stuff,ie parts numbers match,and if I bought new pistons or rods,I would check them. I am saying,that something you buy,if you have to take it apart,check the internals,then theres a problem with the manufactorer. I agree that parts should be checked,but you shouldn't have to take them apart to do so. When you buy a new car,do you take it apart to make sure they did it right?!!??! when you bought your computer,did you take it apart,and make sure the right stuff was installed?!?

[Goatman]

I don't see a major difference between checking piston to valve clearance, or degreeing a cam, or taking apart an oil pump. Seems to be about the same amount of work to me.

Its just "part of the deal". No matter which pump you use.....

[cpetrice]

Okay. you are saying you should check it out before you install it,I am saying ,you shouldn't HAVE too. Melling should make a quality product,one that doesn't need to checked out. you should be able to trust them. its a shame that you have to go behind their assemblers,to verify that they are not boneheads. LOL

[72LeMConvt]

Interesting discussion...

Goatman, you're talking about checking things AS THEY GET ASSEMBLED. Piston-to-valve clearance, degreeing a cam, etc. These are PROCEDURAL checks. Or professional techniques or whatever you want to call them.

P-Dude and Cpetrice seem to be talking about pre-checking a part (or an assembly of parts) bought off the shelf. Oil pumps, carburetors, distributors, etc.

Like Cpetrice says - why should I have to do their QC checks for them?

My two cents...