[Rugratman]

I was wondering after seeing a car for sale at a local car show Sunday.
Is a numbers matching car; The original motor that came with the car off the assembly line ?

OR
The correct code motor for that year. Example your car comes with a WS code motor than is exchanged for a YZ motor. Even though both motors were cast that same year ? Or even replaced with another WS motor ?
How can you tell ?
Is there a vin number on the block somewhere ?

It was actually a Mustang. I am just being generally speaking.
How do make sure you are not ripped off ?

[Rugratman]

I was wondering after seeing a car for sale at a local car show Sunday.
Is a numbers matching car; The original motor that came with the car off the assembly line ?

OR
The correct code motor for that year. Example your car comes with a WS code motor than is exchanged for a YZ motor. Even though both motors were cast that same year ? Or even replaced with another WS motor ?
How can you tell ?
Is there a vin number on the block somewhere ?

It was actually a Mustang. I am just being generally speaking.
How do make sure you are not ripped off ?

[carbking]

There should be a large thread on this subject in the archives. It seems that "numbers-matching" means different things to different people in the Pontiac hobby, even to the point of stamping the necessary numbers. If the vehicle in question is a Mustang, a more accurate response might be obtained on a Ford board.

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.

[engineer]

It varies by years, as Pontiac started adding VIN nos. later compared to just having the correct casting nos. and build dates.

[Juliano]

Matching numbers is just another term for "obssesive compulsive disorder"

[carbking]

As I posted before, there should be a large thread on this in the archives. However, I will post what "matching numbers" means to me:

(A) All components which have casting numbers will be the correct casting number for the vehicle as specified by original documentation.
(B) All dated components will be dated prior to the "build date" of the vehicle.
(C) All components with recorded serial numbers (ie engines) will be the original part as came with the car.
(D) All options will be as defined by original documentation (Pontiacs) if available OR will be recognized as dealer installed (ie radios, hubcaps, etc.).
(E) Paint and trim will be as defined on paint and trim plate affixed to vehicle.
(F) Aftermarket parts will be limited to those items not visible (ie pistons, gaskets, etc.)

When did Pontiac start stamping the serial number on engine blocks? I don't know, but I do know that the serial number was stamped on my 1964 GTO engine block (drivers side front).

Dated components for "normal production" vehicles should have the date in a reasonable window prior to the build date. This window normally would be from 2 to 10 weeks. This window does not apply on vary low production vehicles. Example, we have seen many Rochester 7029273 (RAIV S/T) carbs, but only 5 date codes. Obviously, this carburetor would not fit into the 2/10 window.

OK, there's a target. Everyone take your best shot!!!

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.

[Rugratman]

So actually, the motor will have a matching serial number on the block ?
So for a example a WT code motor from a 67 GTO that was switched from another 1967 GTO would actually show up as not matching numbers because for the serial numbers not matching ?
But the Trans and rear would all be dated coded.
The serial numbers on the block, match numbers on the vin? Or match another set of " Numbers "?

[Jerry H.]

carbking,

Are you serious about the vin of your 64 GTO being stamped on the block below the head? I have owned over 50 GTO's over the years, and I have never known of one having the vin stamped there. I do know that in 69 or maybe late 68 they started stamping the vin lower on the block, around the lower timing cover. I've only seen an engine production number stamped there below the head with the engine code. This will match the number on the protect-o-plate.(warranty book).

About rugrats question, In my opinion; numbers matching means, in addition to all other numbers being correct, that the engine in the car is th one that came in the car. Unless PHS documentation now listed the engine production # (which would be stamped below the head above or below? the engine code), the only way to be 100% sure of this is to have the original protect-o-plate which would have this engine production number to match everything up with. The next closest thing would be the engine code being correct with the PHS documentation and all the date codes of the engine being within a couple of weeks before the build date of the car. Unless of course this is a super rare engine car such as a Ram Air IV or maybe a Ram Air in 67, which could be months before the car was built.

Just my opinion. Carbking, I would be very interested to your response to this post.

Jerry H.

[GTOGary]

I go along with Jerry on this one, Plain and simple- It's the engine that came with the car....Gary

[carbking]

Jerry H. - the number was stamped on the DRIVER's side front of the block, and yes, it was the serial number. It was stamped vertically. Very difficult to see with the engine in the car. I bought the car from the estate of the original owner and was told at the time the engine had never been removed prior to my purchase.

This was sometime in the early 1980's. I can remember being disappointed that the number stamped on the passenger side under the head (engine production number) didn't match anything. There wasn't as much knowledge available to the average individual in those days, certainly no internet. We removed, and totally disassembled the engine, and found the serial number after the block was removed from the hot dip tank. Finding the number made my day.

At the time of purchase, I had been told the car had been serviced at the Pontiac dealer its entire life. Disassembly tended to verify this, as the only non-Pontiac parts on the car were tires, and an aftermarket burgler alarm.

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.

[This message was edited by carbking on April 02, 2003 at 08:04 AM.]

[Fred's red sled]

Jerry H,
Carbking says his 64 has a serial number stamped on it. This is not the VIN number, just the block serial number. Right? If it is a number that matches the VIN I'd suspect someone tapped it in at a later date.

"Come on baby. Sit back, relax and enjoy the ride!"

[carbking]

Fred - it was the VIN number. Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.

[ctgross]

Very interestering! I know my 66 389 has a number on the passenger side above the two letter code that does match the pro-tecto plate. I haven't seen any numbers on the drivers side in that area, but I'm gonna look. I've never heard of any V.I.N. numbers on the older blocks (before 69 or so) but, stranger things have happened!!

CT Gross
------------------------------------------

"It's never too late to have a happy childhood"!

66 Blue GTO

['ol Pinion head]

CT,
The number you have matched is engine asm number not the VIN number. Asm # should be on the protecto-plate & on the original block. Original protecto plate helps tremendously. Thank GOD, fake protecto plates in Pontiac world are near nonexistant, can't say that for world of Chevys .

[carbking]

I seem to be unable to make clear the number referred to in previous posts, so will try it all in one:

(A) 1964 Pontiac GTO (bought from original owners' estate)
(B) Engine production number stamped on passengers side with engine code just below cylinder head on front block surface.
(C) VIN stamped vertically on drivers side on front block surface, but much lower than the engine production number.
(D) Estate representative (son) told me engine had never been removed from vehicle.
(E) Odometer showed approximately 105000 miles. Engine was using oil.
(F) Upon disassembly of engine, pistons, rings, and crank all were found to be standard size. One broken ring was causing the oil useage.

I did not repeat did not buy car new, so I am not positive that someone didn't take out the radiator, water pump, alternator, etc. and stamp these numbers just to confuse us all, but based on what I was informed, and the observed condition of engine components, I assume these numbers were stamped at the factory.

This post not meant to be arguementative, but simply stating what I personally found on a one-owner vehicle.

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.

[ctgross]

OPH, yea I didn't mean to imply that the number on my block was related to any of the VIN, but that it does(engine production #) match the protecto plate. I totally agree that the prot. plate is a serious important item for the owner. Mine has affixed the factory plate and the plate that is mailed to the original purchaser(has his name,etc. with the #'s) placed just above the other, as per instructed in the booklet. I really enjoy these posts and you guys experience. I think Carbkng has a very original factory engine with those numbers. I don't believe someone could stamp a block with such correctness as the factory stamp shows.

CT Gross
------------------------------------------

"It's never too late to have a happy childhood"!

66 Blue GTO

[Fred's red sled]

Carbking,
I don't see this as argumentative at all. I'm fascinated and find it very educational! I'll be watching this post to see if others have VIN's on their blocks.

"Come on baby. Sit back, relax and enjoy the ride!"

[ctgross]

Fred, I don't think anyone meant to be argumentive, just more explanation of the post. I ditto your remarks on this subject contex, I just really dig all that helps document these cars of my era(youth). The original state of my car means much more to me than any time slips it could possibly supply at the track. Hell, I just enjoy this whole thing!!!!!!

CT Gross
------------------------------------------

"It's never too late to have a happy childhood"!

66 Blue GTO

[real61ss]

I've got the motor out of my 65 now, it has the numbers on the passenger side of the block and they match the numbers on the protect-o-plate. I'm going to see if I can find these numbers on the passenger side when I get home tonight. Never noticed them before

Tommy

[Jerry H.]

Jon,
Stranger things have happened in the world of Pontiac I guess. But this is the first time I've heard of a vin being on an early GTO block. Also its odd it being on the drivers side. You have a very rare engine. What plant was the car built and what time of year? Maybe an early car or a special built car maybe? Maybe something special? Who knows?

Jerry H.