[tom s]

JYD,they make a roller now,had one in my hand.FYI,Tom

[Steve C.]

Ray- I had a 700 hp combo based on a 400 block that we were making about a 1000 hp with nitrous and everything was fine. It ran real well, but I knew I needed a new stronger block to last. For the most part everything inside is coming out of the old combination except for new larger diameter pistons and a slightly larger camshaft. Why not????.... the old combination did not have very many passes on it and I would expect all the parts to be fine, including the Crower billet crank & Crower billet rods. And I would expect others to agree.

Again, to me on my limited retirement income using the $525 lifters and $320 pushrods is a big deal. Roller lifters can typicaly be used again with no problems, and these are special .200 offset.

On the base circle thing... the new cam is a solid roller from Lunati and is basicly a copy of the old Ultradyne roller that cam out of the engine. The change was made for more exhaust duration due to the nitrous use. It has a .4267 lobe lift with 1.65 & 1.6 rockers. Duration is only 283/294 @.050. The base circle is within .010" on both cams.

[Ray Cox]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Steve Coombes:
Ray- I had a 700 hp combo based on a 400 block that we were making about a 1000 hp with nitrous and everything was fine. It ran real well, but I knew I needed a new stronger block to last. For the most part everything inside is coming out of the old combination except for new larger diameter pistons and a slightly larger camshaft. Why not????.... the old combination did not have very many passes on it and I would expect all the parts to be fine, including the Crower billet crank & Crower billet rods. And I would expect others to agree.

Again, to me on my limited retirement income using the $525 lifters and $320 pushrods is a big deal. Roller lifters can typicaly be used again with no problems, and these are special .200 offset.

On the base circle thing... the new cam is a solid roller from Lunati and is basicly a copy of the old Ultradyne roller that cam out of the engine. The change was made for more exhaust duration due to the nitrous use. It has a .4267 lobe lift with 1.65 & 1.6 rockers. Duration is only 283/294 @.050. The base circle is within .010" on both cams. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I can understand having a limited buget, I can also understand good parts that came out of your old combo, But I dont feel anyone has a right to post somthing negative about such a good part as the IA2 block based on there buget! This is a high performance part it is not designed to replace somthing running stock performance numbers. High performance parts require special attention and adjustments you didnt have to buy a new block, and they didnt have to provide you with one, did you have to hone it to fit your pistons?maybe you would expect to have them give it to you at your exact bore size also? Actually wouldnt it be nice if they called you and asked for the spesifications in your motor so they could build a block around it? I think it is awfully selfish to think that you expect the block to fit your exact needs, and dont care about the rest of the pontiac comunity. what about the guys trying to make more than 1,000 Hp that need larger body lifters ? they might need that extra material there to work with to not expose the oil ring on the lifter. maybe some people dont want to run a small lift cam like yours. the fact is the material can be taken away but never added
if your woried about 500.00 on a motor like these you cant aford the thing in the first place

[Lloyd-TX]

Schubeck makes some SICK components, and engines!

http://www.schubeckracing.com/new2/i...position=53:53

Here's a pic of their roller lifter.

[Steve C.]

My origional post was not ment to be negitave about the block, only to bring this issue up and to inform others and to get feedback on this situation. If problems aren't known then you can't improve upon things. That's why I have been in contact with Bob at All Pontiac to let him know, and he appreciates it so he can make a effort to provide a good product. They will and do stand behind their efforts and product.

And this stuff goes far beyound basic machine shop 101 !!! My piticular block and others were not "ready to assemble after a quick check of the dimensions and a final hone".
Will they be in the future?, maybe.... but only if there is feedback from me and others out there to discuss the issues.

Anybody think these blocks come perfect with a 10.230 deck height, ready to go .... you had better check! And don't order parts untill you do because cylinder bank varation can exist between one side to the other and the corner-to-corner can be off. We ended up decking ours .005" Anybody out there find they could not install a distributer because the hole was incorrect ? Anybody had issues with a oil drain hole at the back breaking into a water passage? Anybody have problems with the machining on the cam bores? Anybody have to clearance the inside of the block wall so a lifter can drop in ? Anybody have to hone the lifter bores?

Ray... I'm I being negative? Maybe in your eyes, but I'm not discussing these potential issues with the intention to rag about the block itself or the people involved.

And anybody in there right mind knows you can typically use roller lifters over and over. And this is a $6000 adventure.... much more than trying to save $525 on lifters !

[warriors revenge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Anybody out there find they could not install a distributer because the hole was incorrect ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

your distributor should bolt to the belt drive plate!!!!

kal

[Junkyard Dog]

Schubeck roller X - No Pontiac and no price . . .

Neat to see an creative new design, though, with a whole new way of thinking about the problem . . .

[Half-Inch Stud]

Shubeck Roller-X seems to be a superior Roller lifter design.

As for IA2 stuff, tune the "issue for some" into a FEATURE for many: allow lifter to bottom onto Lifter BOSS instead of Cam's Base-circle.
Could Include a Steel Collar, and keep it's position with a Lathed-Groove cut into lifter body, or a couple Match-machined Steel press-pins. I'd guess a .003" hover-off basecircle would be an ideal nominal...at cold. Customer determines where to Pin/Lathe the Postive-Stop collar onto the Lifter's upper body.

IA2 Upper Boss Pad then becomes a toleranced Machining step. Setup a cutter for single-pass for each bank.

Shubeck Roller-X wants an alignment groove along the BOSS..real nice if it's practical to be cutting such vertical grooves into the Boss ID x 16places.

HIS

[PMDuser]

Steve,

It is unfortunate that you are experiencing these issues and I am surprised at the list that you have. I would have to agree that most of that is beyond "machine shop 101".

I would simply ignore ray. Anyone who has been on the boards for any length of time knows that you are not the type to bash or flame. For some reason, ray has become the all pontiac poster child and feels the need to run to their defense at the drop of a hat. I think your original post was genuine and did not carry any negative tone. It is the kind of post that these boards were most likely created for.

Your points and approach seem valid to me. I certainly do not have extra money to pi$$ away when building a motor! Not many do.

Hopefully you get your issues resolved.

Ray, stick to the question. You have either had problems with the lifters fitting or you have not. All the other stuff you posted was complete nonsense.

[cgeise]

Wow -- it seems like some of the guy's on this site have some "issue's". I too had the same situation with lifters-- crower's standard worked fine with old IA block and with new IA-2, when I went exotic, high seat offset lifter's I also had the bar contact the lifter galley, had it machined and all is ok. We are building Racing engines here -- this kind of stuff is to be expected when you put parts together from different manufacture's. Just ask how much mock up time they have in a 30,000 dollar aluminum 632 chev. Three years ago we would give almost anything just to have a block, and or any of the high end stuff now available, Poor quality is not acceptible--- Modifications will be inevitable.

[Steve C.]

PMDuster- Thanks, the issues have been resolved and I believe we are finally ready for assembly.

As a reminder here we have block #17 from the first run of these blocks. Some of the issues we found with the block were found during test fit and some of the other issues I mentioned were from others and I was told about them before hand. And not all the blocks have the same issues, example only 2 or 3 had a small issue with the taper on the distributer hole.

None of the items I listed present a big problem, as I stated here they were small time consuming issues for us to deal with. And some of these issues have already been addressed by Bob and Frank.

The topic of the link bar hitting the block needs to be addressed.... and maybe Ray should be glad I brought it up !

[White Warrior]

I had clearance problems with my IA1 block and the .200 offset Crane rollers and a small base circle cam. If you need more than .400" lobe lift you are going to get a cam like that.It took 2 milling operations to cut enough off the tops of the lifter bores to clear the link bars.
I also found another problem with the lifter bores,they are on the big side causing too much clearance with the lifter,as much as 3-5 thousands.I had one bore start to oval out,I noticed that my lash kept changing.
The cure was to have all the lifer bores sleeved and hone fitted to the lifters. I had the sleeves come up and below the lifter bore to stabilize the lifter,too. They were honed for about .0005" clearance
When I started the motor after this operation,the first thing I noticed was my oil pressure was up about 7 psi. I then went to a thinner oil for less friction and kept the same pressur I had before.

[Bill Meyer]

I find threads like this to be very informative. (With the exception of some of the petty bashing).
I will be getting my 1st IA2 for a customer in the next couple of days.
Has, or will, anyone put together a check list of potential problems, or recommendations of certain compatibility issues pertaining to the IA2? - what works,and what doesn't -
Bill

[cgeise]

One issue that may or may not effect you is the screw in soft plugs in the back of the block. As they stick out further than a drive in style they interfer with a mid plate -- if you are using one it will need to be drilled, also not a fan of the screw in brass soft plugs provided -- way to loose and take a lot of sealer to make fit and not leak. You will need to make a spacer to fill the large gap at the timing cover to pan caused by the deeper pan rails.-- Make sure you get the longer oil pump push rod. AND -- you will probably need to machine the mounting pad on the starter to get proper gear mesh with the flywheel. Good luck.

[Brian Baker]

Checklist? Shouldn't everyone have a checklist when assembling a race engine, regardless of the make/manufacturer of the block/heads/parts/etc.???

I shared my experience with roller lifters in a FACTORY block. Should one expect that the same lifters would just "drop right in" the IA2 block?

As Bob stated in an earlier post, Steve was offered another block in replacement for this one...Steve refused. I know of one Maryland racer that had a serious issue with a block. That block was picked up within 24 hrs. of notifying AllPontiac, and a new replacement delivered within 72 hrs. Issues can be expected, even when the utmost in preperation is done. It's how the issues are handled afterwards that count.

Could Steve still have had issues with another block had he taken Bob's offer to replace this one? Dunno, but for Steve to make a comment such as "...just more additional expense passed on to me. Plus I have one pissed off machinist with this and other time consuming issues he has had to deal with on the block" after he was offered another block is not fair.

As for "pissed off machinist"? This one I don't understand, as any machinist worth his/her salt understands that whenever you are assembling an engine entirely from aftermarket parts, issues with fit will arrise. Additionally, getting upset over decking one side of the block .005" to make it symetrical with the other side (in respect to deck height) is a bit ridiculous.

[10second70GP]

I THINK ALL THIS INFORMATION IS GREAT ON WHAT TO LOOK FOR WHEN I GET MY IA2 BLOCK THIS SUMMER , NOT NEGATIVE AT ALL .

[Skip Fix]

I think even Bob stated it can be added for the list of things to look at for people that buy the block. All of us that have been building Pontiacs for years(Steve is one) have had to massage stuff to work. It's not negative to bring up potential problems for others to look at with the same product. The makers of the IA2 have been great at making improvements over the orignal and seem committed to making the best product they can. If they don't know of the issue they can't look and see if it will be a frequent enough one to address in new production.

My nice high dollar early ATI balancer had to have 0.100+ machined off for the pulleys to line up AFTER they were drilled for Chevy pattern. There are numerous posts on problems with Victor intake fits(mine fit perfect. If you know where the potential problems are you can look for them on assembly and not be suprised and know of the "fixes" for that problem.

[Steve C.]

Brian, Bob did not offer to replace the block. He has offered to reimburse me with some of these additional labor costs. None of these issues are serious enough to warrent a block exchange, especially with labor and time already involved. Plus the freight.

My machinist is pissed off because we are hounding him for this motor and another build up for our shop.... and my friend the blooms are starting to bud on the native trees down here and our first race is March 12th

Oh... and on the last 4 Roush Ford blocks he has done at the shop not one of them has not had big issues. So to say Dennis up there at Roush has retooled and recast these blocks to resolve issues.... ummmmm.

Deck height is critical dimension in engine building. If you measure from both deck surfaces to the crankshaft centerline at the front and rear of the block, all four dimensions will be equal.
When you order order your $800 custom pistions make sure you know your pin height.

[Mo]

For those in the north east it may pay to have someone with IA2 experience build your motor. I am going to have Paul Spotts build mine. I have seen several of these new blocks at Paul's shop and they are very impressive.

[KEV]

Hey Steve. Nice talking with you today. Hopefully our paths will cross again here at another Pontiac event in the future!

I hope that you get everything worked out in time for the season. You know we will expect a full report after the dyno session!

I am sure you will be starting another engine build barely after the motor cools down on the dyno.

Best of luck with the project,

Kev