[Springo]

There is a 77 Rally Gauge cluster on ebay at the moment. It was listed yesterday. I wrote to the guy and asked if he wanted to sell it outright. He wrote back -

"thanks for asking but im going to let go the duration. i do however have one more thats not on auction yet. i would probably have to have what my other one sold for two weeks ago on e-bay which was 420.00 plus shipping, or take a chance on this one to sell for less thanks!!!!!!!!"

I am certainly not blaming the seller, the bidders are to blame for the crazy price. But do you see what happens? This guy has two of the clusters, and now he thinks that they are worth over $400 each. This kind of stuff really pi$$es me of. That cluster is not worth anywhere near $400.

I am not desperate for a cluster, because I think that retrofitting a quartz movement on my non-working cluster clock so that it becomes a working cluster clock that is also reliable ($51 for the conversion kit, or $81 for them to do it for you) - that and installing a repop hood tach is at least as cool, if not cooler, than the Rally gauges. IMHO, working dash clocks are one of the coolest things that you can do to a dashboard, and especially for a clock as big and nice as a GP's.

Also, I can get clusters of any type cheaply around here. They don't even think that anything from a Grand Prix is collectible at any of the yards that I have been to, before I got my GP. Hopefully the stuff that I had been seeing is still there. It probably is, because I have only seen two or three 73-77 GP's running around here in the 3 1/2 years that I've been here - and they were all beater transportation cars used by people who could care less what kind of car it was, as long as it got them to work and back. And I haven't even seen those lately. Perhaps I should be scouring boneyards for these things to sell on Ebay... At $420 a pop, I'll have my GP in the World of Wheels in no time! LOL, I do not think that the clusters are worth any more than $100; maybe $150. and nothing against that seller personally, but I hope that he gets shut down on these clusters. If two more go for $400+ then it will drive the price up for Grand Prix parts on ebay in general. Because we all know that each and every one of us is watching Ebay like a hawk. I have a slight advantage, because between my job on a computer and home, mostly my job, I basically monitor ebay 24 hours a day. I work A LOT of graveyard hours and drink A LOT of Coca Cola (my coffee).

Sleep, what is sleep? I never heard of it. Do they sell it on Ebay?

[Springo]

There is a 77 Rally Gauge cluster on ebay at the moment. It was listed yesterday. I wrote to the guy and asked if he wanted to sell it outright. He wrote back -

"thanks for asking but im going to let go the duration. i do however have one more thats not on auction yet. i would probably have to have what my other one sold for two weeks ago on e-bay which was 420.00 plus shipping, or take a chance on this one to sell for less thanks!!!!!!!!"

I am certainly not blaming the seller, the bidders are to blame for the crazy price. But do you see what happens? This guy has two of the clusters, and now he thinks that they are worth over $400 each. This kind of stuff really pi$$es me of. That cluster is not worth anywhere near $400.

I am not desperate for a cluster, because I think that retrofitting a quartz movement on my non-working cluster clock so that it becomes a working cluster clock that is also reliable ($51 for the conversion kit, or $81 for them to do it for you) - that and installing a repop hood tach is at least as cool, if not cooler, than the Rally gauges. IMHO, working dash clocks are one of the coolest things that you can do to a dashboard, and especially for a clock as big and nice as a GP's.

Also, I can get clusters of any type cheaply around here. They don't even think that anything from a Grand Prix is collectible at any of the yards that I have been to, before I got my GP. Hopefully the stuff that I had been seeing is still there. It probably is, because I have only seen two or three 73-77 GP's running around here in the 3 1/2 years that I've been here - and they were all beater transportation cars used by people who could care less what kind of car it was, as long as it got them to work and back. And I haven't even seen those lately. Perhaps I should be scouring boneyards for these things to sell on Ebay... At $420 a pop, I'll have my GP in the World of Wheels in no time! LOL, I do not think that the clusters are worth any more than $100; maybe $150. and nothing against that seller personally, but I hope that he gets shut down on these clusters. If two more go for $400+ then it will drive the price up for Grand Prix parts on ebay in general. Because we all know that each and every one of us is watching Ebay like a hawk. I have a slight advantage, because between my job on a computer and home, mostly my job, I basically monitor ebay 24 hours a day. I work A LOT of graveyard hours and drink A LOT of Coca Cola (my coffee).

Sleep, what is sleep? I never heard of it. Do they sell it on Ebay?

[Springo]

Y' know, part of the appeal of the Grand Prix to me, and especially of the 73-77 models, is that they are not really considered "collectible." The cars themselves can be found very cheaply if you look, and parts, while not widely available as repops, are cheap and relatively easy to find used. And because Grand Prixs were never really considered collectible, many were sent to the boneyard in relatively nice condition after the first head gasket popped or tranny burned out; unlike most of the GTO's and Trans Am's etc. where people kept them and fixed them and ragged them out again and put lots of garish crap all over them - but they didn't send them to the boneyard like the Grand Prixs.

But as far as myself, I have always loved GP's much more so than the average person or car enthusiast; ever since a friend in high school had a 73 SJ 455. He bashed the front end in on ludes (hey, it was the late 70's...) but that car still hauled butt and would lay a patch of rubber with the wheels still smoking away at 45 mph. Bone stock, and actually a bit on the ragged side. Back then, NOBODY thought of Grand Prixs as anything more than grandma cars, and you could get a nice GTO for $500 so why bother with a Grand Prix? But even back then, I could see what the GP was really about - and as they years went on, I wanted one more and more. The more that I looked at GP's, and started looking closely at what they were made of, the more that I realized that, when properly equipped, they are the equal of the more famous GTO's and Trans Ams in every way. Engines? The same, except on the very rare, extreme high end (no RA 4,5 or SD455, other than that, the same). Handling? Can you say wide track, or RTS? And most of the GP's came properly equipped - until the 350's and especially the 301's started being put in them, all GP's were hot and you couldn't order a lame one if you tried.

And even with all that, I still would never pay $400 for a cluster. I'd say "let him keep it" at that price but unfortunately there are people out there who pay these stupid prices and drive up the price for the rest of us.

Believe me - just because this is my first GP, it's not anywhere near my first project. I am well experienced in how this type of thing goes.
I got my first Harley years before the doctors and lawyers and yuppies etc. started buying them. Talk about prices going up...so I know what I speak of. I am not wealthy, I don't even care to be - I like my life the way that it is. I could make WAY more money in my field if I wanted to be on call 24/7; but that's not worth it to me. I value my time much more than money. We only go around once here, and I want to spend as little of that time at work as possible.

But I sometimes get tired of people throwing money around and driving up prices for things that have traditionally been the province of the working man. Aren't there enough BMW's and Lexuses out there for these folks?

Please forgive my verbosity on this thread - the subject is one that is very close and personal for me. Yeah, it gets personal when the yuppies
cause the price of a Harley to double...yeah it's personal all right. This is along the same lines, but not nearly as big as that.

OK, rant over. Move along, nothing to see here...

[Pontiacdaver]

I agree, man, because the investors, and people who think it's the cool thing to do will come and go, but the Average Joe who truly appreciates old cars will always be around. At least if the prices don't get so high , we can't afford them anymore. I have always chosen to drive cars that are 20+ years old, my wife drives our newer, more economical car that she uses to travel to work 70 mi. round trip each day, and for us to use on trips. But she'd rather drive an old car too. I used to drive GTOs, and Trans Ams, and as the prices have risen on them, moved to GPs and big cars (which I actually like more because they ride better, have lots of room, and are much more unique. Daver

[Springo]

I wrote to both of the bidders asking them why they bid so much for this part. I expect that they will write back, after they see what I wrote. I wasn't cursing at them or anything, but I was fairly critical - I also mentioned that the auction IS my business because I buy parts and people like them drive the prices up for everyone.

The proof is in black and white - the seller has two more of these clusters and when I asked to buy one, he replied " i would...have to have what my other one sold for two weeks ago on e-bay which was 420.00 plus shipping"
So now this guy thinks that these are worth $420 , directly because of these idiots. They are driving prices up right in front of my eyes and I don't like it. I also politely told the seller what I thought of his reply, and said that I don't think that he will get over $400 for one again. I bear no ill will to the seller, but I also hope that he gets shut down this time.

If someone wants to tell me that I should not get angry, that's the way that it goes, it's a free market - then let me say that you are correct. But that does not mean that I have enjoy continually watching anything that I like get bought up by people with money to burn (apparently, with $420 clusters) and price me out. Believe me, I don't get angry at very many things, I am a calm, level headed person; but this subject really pi$$es me off. They did it to Harley, I still ride a Big Twin but I pay twice as much for it. I bought the GP because I love GP's and also because I gave up long ago and let the yuppies have all the GTO's etc. and other high dollar cars - so it really burns me up when people start making high dollar collectibles out of fairly common 1977 Grand Prix parts.

What do I have to do, start restoring 1987 Sunbirds?

PS - I'll let you know what these folks say if they write me back.

[Bull]

I think I'm mostly with you here, although I wouldn't go so far as to write to the auction winners, but that's because I'm generally too polite.

I have a '69 GTO, and almost NEVER look on Ebay for spare parts for it. They are just too expensive and the competition is too intense. Like you, I like the fact that the '73-'77 GPs are not very popular, and therefore the prices aren't through to roof yet for them or their parts. Sounds like that might be changing, which is a very bad thing.

Luckily, I now have a '78 Lemans to work on and buy parts for. It's no '87 Sunbird, but it is also pretty much a Pontiac orphan that there is no parts scarmble for.

[Springo]

I hear you Dave - I am a polite person in most all ways too, but this auction just rubbed me all wrong. I would really like to know what possessed those guys to bid so much.

[Stuart]

Sometimes, eBay auctions go sky-high just because someone Really Really wants whatever it is for sale, and there's nothing you can do about it except watch for the next auction to come around.

A couple years ago I restored a little Suzuki minibike. I bought some parts for it on eBay and usually stuff sold for fair prices. Once in a while, though, this one guy would bid on the same auctions and when I saw his name on the bidder's list I'd just give up, because I'd learned that he would pay whatever it took to win. One time we were both bidding on a rear view mirror; as I watched the last seconds of the auction the price went from around $20 (about what it was actually worth) to $125! All for a stupid rear view mirror for a minibike.

I figured if he wanted it that bad he could have it, it was no skin off my nose. I ended up buying two of them for $20 a couple weeks later, so it worked out fine in the end for me anyway.

[Bull]

I check Ebay daily, but I am a bit disenchanted with it at times.

I have found that a nice counter to the price wars and inflationary insanity of Ebay is to get involved with a group of car guys who try to support one another, and that includes trading or just plain giving away good parts. On another site that I go to that relates to my Lemans, this happens a lot. One guy gave me a free stock Chevy aluminum 4bbl intake, another guy gave me a free, clean Chevy Performer intake, I gave away a few sets of new plug wires, and I also traded a diassembled TH400 for a complete 3.73 posi rear. That all just feels good...car guys helping each other out in an environment where you take one day, and give the next. As I said, it is a nice counter to the price gouging and fierce bidding competitions on Ebay.

[Springo]

Right-o Dave - I also own a nice 1990 Ford Bronco XLT, a full sized one. It is fully loaded and has every single option that was available except for the pushbutton transfer case, and thank God for that because those things suck. But other than that, it's fully loaded and rust free; and every single thing on it works. I bought it with 89K and now it has 131K and runs and drives like brand new. I restored what was needed (not much) and have been improving it ever since.

Anyway, I belong to a Ford Bronco group and we do just what you said. I personally have gone to the boneyard for people, pulled and paid for the parts with my own money and shipped them at my expense and never asked for or wanted any reimbursement - because I know that they would do the same for me if my Bronco needed any parts, but I am proud to say that it needs nothing.

That is the kind of person that I am. And that is why it galls me to see stuff like I am writing about. I am certainly not expecting everybody to start giving stuff away, but gouging annoys me.

But I can even turn a blind eye to gouging; the reason that this auction ticked me off so much was that, like it or not, Ebay is setting fair market prices for all sorts of items these days. Not just car parts. If $420 clusters start becoming the norm on Ebay, soon they will be the norm everywhere. Because the -whole world-sees Ebay, it's not like ads in the back of Hemming's.

In the same vein is Barrett-Jackson. I really hate those guys and the people that go to their auctions and bid crazy money just to one-up each other. It's just a game for them. Meanwhile, ever since they started putting those auctions on the Speed Channel, everyone with a 1975 Maverick thinks that "with a little work, this car will be in the six figures!" and tries selling it for stupid money. Of course not all of these nut jobs sell cars, but many do and the overall effect is to drive the prices on all sorts of old cars up, up, and away.

That's why these things bug me - I resent people with money jacking prices up across the board, just so they can play their little games.

[Pontiacdaver]

I'm with you Dave, if you can find a group of true enthusiasts, like we have here, it sure is better than going to eBay. I have both bought and sold there, and have seen some pretty ridiculous prices paid for fairly common items. One trick useed by some professional sellers there, is to have a buddy (or another identity) bid the price up. It's really amazing how many things (especially cars) you will see re-listed. Myself, anything I put on eBay to sell either has a fair reserve, or mostly I just put it at my minimum price, and let it go for whatever it brings. The only thing I sold that went waaaay past my expectations was a Hot Wheels 67 Camaro error car, I had a reserve of $15.00, and it went for $70.00!! We all just need to help each other keep out hobby as affordable as we can. Daver

[Springo]

I'm with both of you.

Personally, I will state right now for the record that if I have anything that you guys need, it's yours for free, within reason, and if it's a big ticket item I'm sure that we can work out a very nice price. I never gouge fellow enthusiasts, or try to make a profit at all. Like I said, I ain't rich - I can't always physically afford to give things away, but I do whatever I can to help people. And I think that this describes about everyone here. And believe me, if I could even come close to affording it, I'd give you my whole car if you asked for it. My philosophy is - "all you gotta do is ask, and if I can help you out then it's on the way to you the next day." I don't have a heck of a lot of stuff for GP's yet, but eventually I will.

I had a large box full of NOS Harley Davidson parts in my garage that I had accumulated over some years. I guy that I know ate it on his bike, he was OK but the bike bit it good, and he didn't have insurance on the bike. As soon as I heard about it, I was at his door with the whole box and told him to take anything that he needed. He was able to use most of it, and that made me happy as hell! That's the way it should be - among people of a similar interest in cars or bikes.

I have no doubt that you guys would do it for me, I can tell already. This place has the same feel as the Ford Bronco board. And anything that you guys need, if I have it, it's yours. I have a whole lot of untapped boneyards in my area, lots of them - and for whatever reason, this is not Pontiac country. So it is conceivable that I will find many parts, but I don't know yet. I plan to start scouring on Monday when I have a day off. So I will let you guys know what I find, I have this vision of walking into a yard and seeing GP's all over the place... Well, it -could- happen! But I'll let you all know what I find.

BTW - between this thread and the Year One thread, I'm done ranting about gougers. It takes too much energy! I guess that I was just surprised to see this going on for my beloved Grand Prixs, it sorta took me by surprise - but I'm getting a handle on what's worth what, where to look, and where not to look.

[Junqueboi]

Well guys, I agree with you here. Another '73-'77 tach cluster just sold for a bit more than $200. My sister & I call it "stupid-money".

I have bought three or four of the GP tach clusters off E-bay in the $100 range. I bought them because I knew they would eventually get pricier & I happen to own two '73 GPs & two '73 GAs...

I hated paying what I paid back then, but I figured that they were worth a hundred bux each. I still think they are worth a hundred...but geez...

I bought a '77 LJ parts car from a junkyard for $225 with that cluster.

If you really want to get pissed, check out the E-bay loser 'billionsandtrillions'. Also check out 'originality_plus'. These jacka$$es snipe auctions of rare NOS parts & resell them with several hundred-dollar opening bids. Trash like this have pissed on my parade many-a-time.. I'm a guy that buys parts to fix up his cars...these creeps buy the stuff because of *greed*...they can buy up the supply & gouge any poor sucker desperate enough to pay stupid-money for the part(s).

I really need another console clock for Grand Prix #2. But the last USED console clock sold for $100. $100 for a damn clock. That's about what a '69 Camaro clock goes for..

Bad news people. These jerques have figured out that they can make a killing off the '73-'77 Pontiac & Oldsmobile A-body crowd. Good thing you don't own a 70's Gran Torino either! These cars were worthless until the recent Starsky&Hutch craze came back. Ridiculous.

Seriously, search on E-bay for the above userids ...search on them by bidder & then by seller & see what you'll find. One clown had a NOS '66 Toronado front wheel bearing out there with a STARTING bid of $600. No lie. A front wheel bearing.

Now don't get me wrong, I used to sell a lot of stuff on E-bay, but I've never had a reserve auction...and I've never listed anything with a starting bid of more than $20.

E-bay is an auction site...but it's becoming less and less fun to search for stuff. Once I get internet access at the house, I'll be selling again, but these will be fun auctions... they'll get lots of bids. If people want to spend stupid-money for my stuff, so be it. But at least I'll let THEM decide what they want to pay.

[Springo]

To his credit, the seller wrote me back, and he agreed that it probably would not get near $420 again. He also offered to give me a shot at it if the bids don't get too high near the end. After speaking with him, I believe that he never expected that kind of money and was not trying to gouge anyone. Basically, the bidders gouged themselves. I also exchanged e-mails with the high bidder. She and her husband have bought three Grand Prixs, 77's I think, to make one nice one. They wanted the tach and could not find one in the south, where they live. She said that they would have preferred not to have spent so much on it, but they wanted it, and now they have it. I still think that it is insane, though.

Sorry if it seemed like I overreacted a bit, but this is one of the only subjects in the world that gets me going like that. It was Barrett-Jackson's auctions on Speed Channel that was the last straw. I literally started seeing many extremely marginal cars being auctioned for big money, and the seller mentioning Barrett-Jackson... Man, I just like cars, y' know? Enough with the profit motive already. There are enough used car dealers out there already - and even they are starting to look good, compared to some of these Ebay twats. And used car lots seem to be great places to pick up old GP's cheap - it's just another old car to a lot of them.

[Bull]

No need to apologize, Springo, we're with ya

As for the free parts network, let's do what we can within the '73-'77 GP scene. I have quite a few parts from a couple cars (mostly interior stuff) and my '77 is getting long in the tooth and due for a mini-resto/refresher. So, I have parts to offer, and will need parts later for my own car.

[Springo]

That works if everyone has parts. Right now I don't have much of anything to offer, I have a couple of extra things but not much. After I scour the boneyards around here, I hope to have more stuff, or at least know where some good parts are.

I do need some interior stuff and am willing to pay for it. Write me at jse126 at hot mail dot com.

Thanx

[Chiefpontiac]

Springo,

Check out Speedway auto salvage in Erie. I was there yesterday and saw at least four '73-'77 GPs.

[Springo]

Really? Heck yeah I will go there. I am going to boneyards on monday when I have the day off. Were you looking for GP parts, or something else?

Is that a U-Pick yard?