[Lee]

There is less difference between the brands than ever before.

You have a base stock oil that is combined with various additives. There are only a few companies that make the base oils (very few of which are the actual "brand" on the bottle). There are also only a few companies that make the additives.

Oil "brands" typically formulate their oils a'la carte - a base oil from one company, some VII (viscosity index improver) from one additive co., some PPD (pour point depressant - cold weather performance) from another, and some dispersants/detergents from another.

Everything is tested at multiple levels, and virtually all oil on the market is good. When there is a problem, it is typically the result of a problem with one of the additives. There are some additives that have had negative results when mixed with other additives. If you stick with one brand, you won't have problems.

[Ken -Ace- Brewer]

Hey guys,
I like Torco oils! They have been one of the first racing oils back in the 50's. They make a quality conventional, and a blend, and a full syn. All have there pantented MPZ in it!
They also make high quality assembly lubes! I have tried this stuff on piston skirts, no scuffing whatsoever! Good stuff.
Go to there website and read! Very interesting stuff!
Be Cool, http://home.earthlink.net/~pontiac455/

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ACE-P.P.R.

[This message has been edited by Ken Brewer (edited 09-27-2000).]

[Guy Mazza]

As Ace said, Torco makes some good products. I also use Kendall GT-1 in race engines. (I change oil after EVERY race!)
Later, Guy

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Here ya go, Have this one saved. http://www.rconcepts.com/beard/dragn...g/oilinfo.html

[Larry 67]

Thanks for all the responses...they are helpful..certainly alot of info to digest!! I've always used Valvoline in my GM vehicles,because that's what the dealers use. Never had any engine problems. I use 5 w 30 in my little 3 cyl GEO, it's the hard drive formula for cars that run high RPM's. The guy who taught me how to rebuild these little engines won't even discuss using anything else. From P-Dudes last post looks like Castrol is a good choice. Amsoil is lots better..but what is the price diff between Castrol & Amsoil. I'll have to check.
Again thanks for helping with this question...see ya.

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Cruise On!!!

[72LeMConvt]

P-Dude,

Good info in that link.

I use AMSOIL in my newer, tighter engines, because it is far superior and the extended intervals cuts down on one more maint. chore that I don't need. I'll go 15K miles before changing oil, but at 7.5K, I pull off the old filter and put a new AMSOIL filter on (loses about 1 qt. in the process). AMSOIL (and synthetics, generally) tend to "creep" thru seals and gaskets much more so than conventional oils. Something like what penetrating oil does. So on many engines, if you make a change to synthetics, you'll begin to see weeps and leaks here, there, and everywhere. Also, AMSOIL has a program where you run an external, auxiliary-type filter (one of theirs, naturally) and just routinely send oil samples in for analysis, and as long as the analysis checks out, their oil is good to go indefinitely. Many over-the-road trucking firms do this with excellent results over millions of road miles.

For me, at 25K miles/yr., that protection and extended life makes up for the 4x price differential. Not counting the 3 mpg increase I get with it.

BTW, I've read some other studies that put Mobil 1 at worse than most 79 cents/quart conventionals as far as protection/life goes. I keep as far away from M-1 as possible.

[GP-K]

I don't know about the Mobil AV-1, but I have had excellent results with Mobil 1 (and other synthetics).

The overall quality of ALL oils has improved much since the '80's and earlier. So the difference between the synthetics and the others has become less noticeable.

Tininjun, being a jet mechanic, you have to know that nearly all military jets use synthetic lubricants. We also use synthetics in most of the diesel and gas engine vehicles on base. The military studied all of the lubricants, and found that synthetics worked better under extreme duty situations than did the non synthetics.

The difference between true synthetics and crude based lubricating oils is the lengths of the polymer chains in the oil. Without getting too deep in the chemistry, the synthetic polymer chains are stronger, and much longer, and these qualities allow the molecules to slide along easier, this also makes them more temperature stable. So this is why synthetics have improved lubricating and temperature break-down resistance qualities.

The additive packages determine the oil's detergent qualities, the viscosity, and in some cases the "coating" characteristics, not the oils themselves. The detergents act to hold a variety of contaminants in suspension until the oil filter can snag them, the viscosity modifiers act to allow the oil to behave much thinner at low temperatures, and there are additives which give the oil some “coating” properties (to protect metal surfaces when the engine is not running). Some racing oils have a very limited (or in some cases non-existent) additive package. Redline racing is an example of one of these oils. For racing use, they sacrifice some of the long-term use qualities to enhance the overall temperature and lubrication performance. The additives always reduce these qualities of the synthetic base stock oils. The reason you change synthetic oils is because the additives get used up. The reason you change natural base oils is because the oil base itself starts to break down in the presence of heat and contamination.

My own personal testimony to the lubrication qualities of Mobil 1 was with my 4 cylinder autocrosser/daily driver car. I used the 15w-50 Mobile 1. During a race, in a tight series of corners, I starved the bottom end for oil, and wiped a bearing. I drove the car (I was a poor college student) with that wiped bearing, and the resulting knock for over 15k miles. I changed the oil, and then monitored the oil using spectral analysis (aka. SOAP analysis) after the event for rapid wear. Comparing the original oil sample to the monthly 15 cc drains for analysis showed no increased rate of wear, and actually the amount of metals in the oil was not much above fresh oil.

I rebuilt the engine that spring prior to going to the Nationals, and when I disassembled and inspected the engine, sure enough the rod was a little blue, and the bearing was down to the copper (which was really thin), but the engine never blew and the bearing did not spin, even though I still ran the engine pretty hard the entire fall and winter going back and forth to school. I assume (based on the oil analysis) that all of the bearing damage occurred during the race. I still have the bearing halves in my "collection". All of the other bearings looked great, almost new, even after 95k miles since the last rebuild, and a leak down check showed it was still (for this engine) in the excellent range. Here is the real surprise, the crank did not have to be turned! A light polishing returned the crank to usable condition, with acceptable clearances.

During that 15k miles of running with the knock, I continued to change oil at my standard 4k-5k intervals (or about 120hrs run time), using an AC filter. The knock never worsened during that time.

I have not noticed any significant engine oil leaks in any of my vehicles.

By the way, I use the Castrol Motorcycle synthetic in my motorcycle, and Mobil Delvac 15w-40 synthetic in my 6.2 Diesel Suburban tow vehicle (with 260k miles). The Suburban also has Redline ATF in the tranny, and Mobil 1 gear lube in the rear end. The GP gets Mobil 15w-50, and my quad 4 Grand Am gets 5w-30 (160k miles). My change intervals vary between 3k and 7k miles depending on usage.

Just my experience, yours may differ.

Sorry about the book.

K.

[Blackcat]

My old college roommate had the best theory.
Change your oil every 2500 miles. The brand really didn't matter. His car is still going strong with 500,000 miles. My every day driver had 353,000 miles before someone blasted it in front of my house. The engine is still powering another Pontiac. two years later.

[Cliff R]

I lost the thrust on the crank in my last 428. It only lasted about 6 months. I was using Mobil One synthetic. I currently am using 15W-40 Shell Rotella in everything that I own. Mostly because I have a Dodge P/U with a Cummins diesel and buy the stuff in 5 gallon buckets. Only 15W-40 and a few 30wts still have the CC/CD rating for commercial and hd use in gasoline and diesel engines.

[Colorado Bill]

I used Castrol synthetic when it first came out, in a slant-six Duster. It made the temp gauge run noticeably lower in the summer, but I switched back to regular oil as leaks got worse. I don't think the oil caused the leaks--it leaked as much with regular oil.
I don't use synthetic in my Pontiac. It has a Crane Cam, and I asked one of their tech operators about synthetics in the early '90s. He said they don't recommend them because they've seen accelerated wear over conventional oils. That doesn't fit with most of what I've heard about synthetics. The cam instructions recommend PA crude oils, so maybe Crane owns some oil rigs.

[KS circutguy]

Mobil 1,in my daily driver colt and in my 412ci pontiac...Or amsoil if the price is right..I no longer use non-syn. oil except when breaking in motor then I use a bottle of crane breakin' and valvolean straight 30W..

Mobil 1 is the only thing GM recommends in the new Vette,and so does Chy..in the Viper..
And i think Ferrari does too..

?? If it causes leaks or wear why would the auto manufactures recommend it..
After lots of testing and after a tear down inspection of many motors using petro. based and syn.I am a believer in Synthetic oils..

NO COKING.....Far more stable,and wear resistant..No comparision..But some of you here believe Eagle rods are made with bottle caps..So Its no suprise that you believe the crap about Synthetic oils...

Maybe Karl can tell ya the straight scoop on oil..

You will also see an increase in gas mileage and lower et's...And I use amsoil gear lube and trany fluid too...
And no leaks or wear.... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] later,Steve.

[This message has been edited by KS circutguy (edited 11-25-2000).]

[UnchainedGTO]

Larry,
KS is correct in is reply to you. I have a pretty good report on the properties of Synthetic oil and crude base products that I would be happy to share if you are interested. Most companies who produce synthetics are all too happy to compare with crude oils, because synthetics are advanced without viscosity improvers which break down due to heat and contamination. Most synthetics do not contain viscosity improvers so this is not a problem for them.
I have been trying to find an unbiased report comparing synthetics. I have recently broken down two motors with equal milage and abuse that ran synthetic oil, and both were clean inside with no buildup of any kind top side. One did have some residue in the pan. I would like to see a comparison between Amsoil and Mobile 1 someday and may conduct my own. In the mean time both of these oils are great products and very much worth the extra money in my opinion.

Unchained

[Cruiser]

It has always been my contention that a new engine should be broken in on a non-synthetic oil to aid in the proper seating of the rings.after the rings have seated & the engine is properly broken in I would then switch to a synthetic for the reduced friction.
What about oil additives such as Protec.....do you guys think they work?????
The idea of a synthetic not being used to break an engine in is one that I have heard from numerous mechanics.Later Mark B.

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[UnchainedGTO]

Cruiser,
The break in period that you are speaking about is something that I have always lived by as well. Most of the companies making synthetic that I have dealt with will agree with this also. The official stance with Mobile 1 who was asked this same question was that you can use M1 from the start. It may take a little longer for the motor to seat, but it will happen.
As for oil additives or teflon going into a crankcase. I would not do it. Here is a good site to take a look at. http://www.vtr.org/maintain/oil-additives.html
Like anything else please do the research before adding anything other than oil into your crankcase whether it be Synth or Dino.

Unchained.

[KS circutguy]

I also forgot to mention I use Problend additive from Summit or Jegs,and have been for some 12yrs.with great success...

Started using it right after I got into Squeeze...Has NO teflon,and works with syn. oils.. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] KS out.

[Colorado Bill]

What about semi-synthetics? Do they have any benefit over straight conventional oil, or are they just a marketing gimmick?

[UnchainedGTO]

CO Bill,
I had a nice detailed response for you and just as I was ready to send it my system locked up. Must be a Ford computer. You now get the short version. A semi-synthetic does have a niche in the market for extreme cold regions. It will still flow better than standard oil, but not as well as full synthetic. I also don't want to come across as one of those who live and die with synthetics. If a motor has over 20K miles on it before it gets synthetic oil I would not make the change. The seals on that motor would have some cracks and wear that would let the free-flowing synthetic oil seep out.

Let me make another point also by saying that crude oil is not bad oil. The only point is that it has limitations that synthetic doesn't have. Castrol makes great oil as does Quaker State, Valvoline, Pennzoil and many others. Since the relative price of an oil change is extremely low compared to the value of your vehicle you have to decide if the advantage is worth the price.

Unchained

[Lee]

I was not in this business back when Mobil 1 was having their problems, but have talked to people that were.

RE: causing leaks - original formulations had too stout of a detergent package. It would start removing the varnish and gunk that had built up in old motor, which had also formed sort of an internal "seal". Since the gaskets hadn't been getting much/any exposure to oil, they sort of dry-rotted. Once the varnish was gone, the oil got the now defective gaskets/seals = leaks. They changed the formulation.

RE: aviation engine damage - I'll have to check into that one, I do not know anything about that SPECIFIC problem. I do know that there have been other instances where an "oil" was responsible for engine damage of a significant scale. The ones I've heard about, though, were not actually the fault of the oil. Rather, the blame was with the additive producer. The "oil" doesn't want their competition to know exactly whose additives they were using, so they took the blame publicly. In reality, though, the additive maker was the one paying out the money to fix the damages.

Quality control has improved DRAMATICALLY over the last decade.

Only thing to keep in mind at the present, is to NOT mix brands unless you are changing out all the oil. i.e., do not use 3qt.s of one brand and 3 more of another when you change oil, or use a couple of quarts of a different brand to top off due to a leak. There is a distinct possibility that if you use 3qt.s of 10W-30 brand-X and 3 more of 10W-30 brand-y, there could be an unwanted reaction between the additive packages and you could end up with 6qt.s of thinner or thicker oil.

[IL68GTO]

I'm about 350 miles into my 400's break in period running Quakerstate 10/30 with no problems. I used a quart the first 80 miles, but now it's holding fine now. I just wish I had used a better rear main seal than the rope as I have a very faint drip.

[llucas]

the leak problem is due mainly to the fact that one synthetic base stock will shrink seals and another will expand them, so the blend must be just right or you will have seal problems.