[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Tom and others,

Another story is John Clegg. He bought a 73-455SD Formula and had it shipped to Truman Field's house in 1973. They reworked the distributor, put headers on, geared it with some suspension alterations, and took it to Indy to run class.

It blistered the field! So, they sent it to tech and NHRA disqualified it. It took all day but Pontiac came to tech and verified that the engine was authentic. They had never seen a Pontiac with a 45-degree seat before, nor had they seen a high performance valve job from the factory like that.

So, he was reinstated. But they started factoring the 455SD with HP just like they did on all the other engines, including expulsion of all the RA-V heads. (Because of all the whiny-butt Chevrolet, Mopar, and Ford guys. They knew none of them could compete, so they gerrymandered it out.)

He ended up building the car for Super Stock, and running the 400-6X motor as that was the only motor not factored to death in the 1980's early 90's. Pontiacs owned SS/LA and SS/KA. Then they factored that motor 10HP. Kenny Shawver now owns SS/KA with his 78 TA. All the 74 TA's are gone. Everyone gave up and built GT cars to get away from getting killed by NHRA with one engine.

So, 30 years later, he comes to Indy with his car in SS/AM with a Steve Schmidt 440 cubic inch Pontiac GM corporate motor. On his back window it said, "30 years at Indy".

No one can tell John he isn't a Pontiac guy. Only someone stupid like me will buy a set of SD heads for what $4kNOS? Spend $12,000 on them with the Jesel valve train, and then go Super Stock racing.

Cast Iron is terrible to work with and unrepairable in most cases when you go too far. It just isn't practical. However, it is the only Pontiac head with a Part number that you can run in NHRA classes. That is why they have to switch.

There is a reason there is only two or three 455 Pontiacs left in NHRA Super Stock. If it was easy, anyone could do it. We just now got ourselves playing the political game just like the chevy, mopar, and ford guys. No matter how hard you work at making power, the strike of the political pen will kill you every time. Until we woke up, we never had a chance.

Allow a 69 TA with dual quads, RA-V alum heads, and an aftermarket block just like the Hemis have? That would be not much different that the SS/AA cars of today. Most of those Hemi cars were hand built at a dealership just like the RA-V program was. I guarantee you we would give them a good run for their money. Even with their $5500 titanium axles and their $100k chassis.

Lynn

[Tom Vaught]

I would drive a long distance to see a 69 Firebird with a dual quad
Ram Air V kick some Chebby or Ford Butt! LOL!

The politicians came make it tough even for Tech Inspectors. I remember more than one casual overlook at Chebby and Ford cars vs a complete teardown on other makes vehicles. "They HAVE to be cheating, they can't be faster than a Chevy".

Tom V.

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Originally Posted by theoldone

I believe what he means is, porting technology has advanced quite a bit since then. And you are also correct, the new castings have straighter ports to begin with for many engines- so the high port was not needed.

Thanks Old One,

I thought the answer was obvious, so i didnt respond. Also, the raise port technology back then was to straighten up the port, and decrease the size of the ports. We dont do that anymore. If you will look at the picture above the exhausts were very small.

I would love to do a set of OEM RA-V's again, but the cost and availability of them makes it all unrealistic, not to mention they are still considered illegal for NHRA racing. I could probably get that changed, but you never know.

Lynn

[Wareagle]

Lynn--it is a game of Politics--look when Pontiac was kicking butt in NASCAR in the early 60's with Their SD389-421 CATALINAS -Chevy could'nt stand losing --so what did we get--the 63 GM racing ban--Chevy got back into Nascar but Pontiac never did--I wonder why .

[dutch injun]

Is Rudy from Dutch origin? I'd like to know if this is the Rudy I've met in 2000 at a Pontiac meet in the Stockton, CA or Modesto area. He heard us speak Dutch and came up to us and we had a great conversation, he was real happy to talk Dutch again! He had a white 63Tempest race car,he drove it around the parking lot, it looks like the one in NHRAsuperstock's photo! I think he said he had a 428 Pontiac engine in it, I remember talking about the 4" stroke. He also said he came to the US in the 60's from the city of Utrecht, and he had his son with him. I also remember telling him he should get on PY and we could chat, but he didn't want to get into the computer thing. Is this the same man?

[Nine Ninety]

Found another picture of Rudy's Tin Indian with him in the background.

[dutch injun]

Yes, that was the guy I spoke to, in the white suit! So sorry he passed away.

[theoldone]

Originally Posted by Wareagle

Lynn--it is a game of Politics--look when Pontiac was kicking butt in NASCAR in the early 60's with Their SD389-421 CATALINAS -Chevy could'nt stand losing --so what did we get--the 63 GM racing ban--Chevy got back into Nascar but Pontiac never did--I wonder why .

there's a lot more to it than that...the "racing ban" was actually a well propagated cover story because GM and specifically Pontiac had no competitive engine for the 1963 season.

The Ford 427 FE walked all over the Pontiac 421's at Daytona in 1963. And the Pontiacs were using the brand new "980" SD421 heads, which were just released in late Oct-Nov 1962 for the 1963 season.

If you read Pete Mc's book on the SD421 cars, quite a few were made during 1963, but they simply were not as dominant or competitive as previous years.

When Mopar released the 426 Hemi in 1964, the show was over- racing in the big leagues with a Pontiac in 1964 was like bringing a boy scout pocket knife to a gunfight. The Fords and Mopars of the time were making 150-200 HP more than the SD421- regardless if you watch the old NASCAR archive race films from 1963-70, you'll see a few Pontiacs in the race on the inside getting lapped terribly by Mopars and Fords. I watched a few.

Chevy snuck back in through the back door with the 427, which Smokey Yunick tweaked to lead the Daytona 500 in 1967, but it chucked a rod and that was it- the race was won by a tunnel port 427 Ford with a young Mario Andretti driving.

Pontiac DID race in 1963, if you look at the record book you'll see they won quite a few short track and dirt track races (NASCAR still raced on some dirt tracks then). After 1963, there were no more Pontiac wins.

There was also a guy running a Pontiac 428 w/RA V heads that ran in the 1969-70 time period in NASCAR, that amounted to nothing- then another effort with the Pontiac 366 engine with RA IV heads in 1972 in NASCAR. So Pontiac did indeed race long after 1963 with their engine- it simply was not competitive anymore.

Could GM have competed if they wanted to ? Yes, certainly. At the time Chevrolet alone was bigger in corporate size than Chrysler, Ford, AMC, and all other GM divisions put together ! Bottom line was, GM didn't need race wins to sell cars, Ford and Mopar did. GM still outsold Ford/Chrysler even though they did not "officially" compete in NASCAR. So GM figured, why bother ?

I believe had Pontiac been able to make a solid lifter valley 400-type block, and use the RA V or other hi-flowing head, and had factory money and big corp. sponsor support, they could have been competitive. Obviously the RA V head was up to the task. And in 1971 NASCAR rules allowed multiple carbs on 366 engines, but only one carb on a 427. So in effect a NASCAR racer could run a 366 w/2-4's and RA IV or RA V heads.

[Ron]

Hey Ninety Nine...is that you in the sun glasses???

[Steve Barcak]

Old one

About your comments about the Pontiac engine being maxed out and antiquated and M/T- I never stated and I don’t think anyone else ever has, that Mickey Thompson was a dyed in the wool Pontiac racer. He was not. He was a dyed in the wool successful racer, designer, manufacture and business man, among other things.
Thompson had no dedication to Pontiac other than the money he was getting from Bunkie and later Estes. This was a time when Pontiac had an active racing program and the aftermarket. (like Thompson) was contracted to develop and manufacture parts, and set records. As soon the ban happened, Mickey got a contract from Ford. This is not news, this is business.
This has NOTHING to do with what my comments about Rudy running a chev motor. You also made a comment about him giving up after maxing ou the Pontiac. Maxing out? You think the Pontiac is maxed out? Tell that to Jeff Kauffman, tell that to Robin Roberts, tell that to Andy Mitchell and others. It is far from maxed out.
You ask how fast I have gone. Why? That has nothing to do with mentioning the truth about an alleged Pontiac dyed in the wool running a chev. if you have to know, My car has gone 7.50. Only a handful of others have ever gone faster with a Pontiac. That 7.50 was on a part pass. I designed my deal myself and for whatever reason mr vaught is critical of that. I don;t have sponsors and it isn;t a tax write off. it comes out of my pocket. i don;t answer to anyone. some people here have a problem with that. too effin bad. i work on it and run it for fun when I please.
As for my lower girdle that mr vaught also criticises. it is the strongest bottom end on any automobile engine ever built. Not just Pontiac, anything.
You mentioned that my block broke right away because of my girdle? Where in Gods name do you get that info? Whoever gave that to you doesn;t know anything about me. nothing is further from the truth.
I did break a block, a $100 59 389 block. It broke due to a valvetrain component failure. Now everyone who has raced or run hard over time will break something in the valvetrain. When it happens to a gas car, there is usually minor damage. When it happens to a car on fuel it causes an exposion. That is what happened. It has nothing to do with my girdle design. If fact, because of the design ( that mr vaught makes fun of me about for some reason) the rods, crank, bearing and 6 pistons and rings survived. That is quite an accomplishment. without the girdle, it would have been a mess.
I don;t know if you and mr vaught want to purposely pick on me or not. I don;t have time, as many do here, to fiddle for hours a day on the message boards. But, with consideration, get your facts straight. And for the other guys, get your ego straight.
You cannot be a dyed in the wool Pontiac man and run a chev motor. That is hypocracy.


Mr vaught.
Please get your facts straight. I made no comments, as you said, about "dyed in the wool racers". I made comments about dyed in the wool Pontiac racers. If you call speaking the truth “Banishing” then that is your definition. There is nothing wrong with telling the truth. That is what I am doing. My father and brother have both passed on. If anyone was discussing or asking questions about them. I would want them to know the truth. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing unethical or improper about the FACTS. If you look at what I did write, I did credit his Pontiac accomplishes. It appears you and a few others only read what you want to see and not what I write. Maybe new glasses are in order? Just a friendly suggestion.
My girdle support is the only and the strongest one ever put on a Pontiac and it works.
I have 2 versions a standard and the HD version. In my class, something you over look and do not understand despite your “immense” wisdon and visons, there is restrictions to only a 6-71 blower and a 14% overdrive. That design is more than adequate for class I am running in.
As for the teaching aid. You have a lot more to learn. You only see what you want. And you know nothing of me. you make yourself look dumb to the people know me and what I have built.


I find it ironic that on a Pontiac message board and discussing things with
"alleged" Pontiac people, that I have to defend myself over mentioning that someone is running or ran a chevy motor in their car. Where are all the real diehards? These people obviouosly are not.

[Nine Ninety]

Originally Posted by Ron

Hey Ninety Nine...is that you in the sun glasses???

Nope, that isn't me. I was much younger than that at the time (not to mention the fact that I was behind the camera)!!!!

[GTOGEORGE]

Some people are out there trying and some are sitting behind a key board!

[GTOGEORGE]

Yea, but we're out there trying!

[GTOGEORGE]

Tom seems to me all you have been doing is hanging on other RACERS shirt tails all your life and taking credit for all their hard work and sweat.......pretty sad!

[GTOGEORGE]

Tom,
I've tried to e-mail you before..........................and you NEVER answered me! I don't want to waste my time.

[Wareagle]

Theoldone--believe what you like --but even today a destroked version of the 421SD- WOULD STILL BE KICKING BUTT in NASCAR.

[GTOGEORGE]

No attacks................JACK just fact. All you ever do is criticize (attack) other RACERS who are spending there own hard earned money and spending hours sweating to make their racecars better. It's easy to criticize when all you do is sit behind a keyboard and spending other RACERS money.

P.S. You always seem to forget KRE (Mark Kauffman) in that Quickest Pontiac list (6.92 at 202+ MPH).

[jack gaydosh]

GTO george What jack are you talking about hope not me!!!!

[theoldone]

Steve,

I stand by my original statement- Rudy Dreyfuss took the traditional Pontiac parts- RA V heads w/2-4 intake, iron block w/4-bolt mains and 3" journals, and SD421 steel crank- to their limit. That was Pontiac's best stuff and he maxed out that combination in a naturally aspirated motor.

I wasn't referring to aftermarket or nitro/blown applications. But in that case, Pontiac is again way outgunned by Ford-Mopar-Chevy stuff.

You can't wave your hand at a blown nitro Hemi that runs 4's and yell "if it wasn't for that 1963 Racing Ban, I'd show you buggers". Esp. if your own blown nitro Pontiac runs a 7.50 partial run then splits in half.

It just sounds like a poor excuse. There is no racing ban now.

Having said that, good luck with your racing endeavors, and I'm on your side. I admire your dedication and enthusiasm for Pontiacs. But I had heard from first hand accounts your block girdle broke, and that you were idling your car on jackstands in the pits and not really putting runs on it. That's all.

[Jack Gifford]

Pontiac people might not have it all, but we sure got egos!
(I forgot- what was the name of this thread?)