[Bad Karma]

To me after blowing up 5 pontiac engines ALL ROD Breakage I would say dont waste time with the cast rods. These guys are making alot of sense to me anyway. The used rods are 30 years old. Who Knows how many times they were pushed to one mm of thier breaking point in the last 30 plus years over heated revved cold how many 100,000 of thousands of miles they may have? Thats alot of risk even in a stock engine rebuild. If I spend 4K on an engine I want my 4K worth. Here is another reason its very hard not to be HARD on your fresh motor after its been broken in. We all do it you need to see what she got. Its fun so you do it a few more times. Then a little higher rpm and a little higher just to test the power band right? Ok well I will be installing the most expensive rods I can afford in my next 455 stroker engine,because its cheap insurance. After suffering many months of down time because of cast rods I wont risk 3 or 4 k on the hope that I had the only strong set of cast rods out there.Its not a good risk a few hundred more than you spend to rebuild the old ones and you wont have to worry about 5500 rpm anymore. 6000 6500 will be red line with good rods. Cliff knows his stuff .Pdude says it depends on application. Sure you can run whatever you want but I choose to listen to the experts and they will tell you run new aftermarket rods if you want to protect your investment. I look at it as for 300 extra bucks I know the engine wont be coming out for a rebuild next year because my 30 year old rod got brittle from being over worked. That is what happens to metal when it is over worked gets brittle and snaps.

[Tom Vaught]

One of the main reasons why we have far fewer pontiac engine failures is the reintroduction of better quality rods at an affordable cost. Eagles, Scat, Cat, etc all fit the better than stock cast rods defination.

If you want to step up to Crowers, Oliver, or even Carrillos the rods are there thanks to the ability to use the 2.25 or 2.20 rod bearings.

I personally would not even use the cast rods as weight for my boat anchor. There are better boat anchor materials.

JMO

Tom V.

[JSchmitz]

Maybe I should cave to the consensus on the aftermarket rods. A few hundred dollars isn't that much in the scheme of a rebuild. I must say though, I must have been living in a cave. I haven't heard of all these Pontiac rod failures. With all the sets out there, we should be seeing a post an hour. I've been beating the ***** out of mine for 20 years. My 455, in my younger days, saw 6grand all too often. I now know it does me no good. I shift at 5200 now. In a mild performance street engine I just don't see it being a great risk. Maybe I'm wrong, I was once before. You know, when I thought I was wrong and wasn't. I digress.

Now, please excuse me while I go tear down my ENGINE (My powerplant instructor refused to answer you if you called it a motor). Thanks to you, I'll be waking up in cold sweats otherwise.

[Bad Karma]

I'm not telling anyone they made the wrong choices. I know what choice I will make and its all about protecting my investment is all. I have had enough of them let go on me that I wont risk it when money is at stake. Thats not to say If I found a running 455 that I wouldnt install it in my car just because it had stock rods. I mean if I am going to tear an engine down and pay for machine work I am going to spend the extra money to buy new rods. If I skimp on it mr murphy will strike I have no doubt of this due to my past experiences with cast rods. Mine didnt let go at 6000 rpm either were talking 4500 rpm on one 350 5200 on another 350. They just let go due to age and heat cycles. They are brittle to begin with thats why I wont use em. To each his own its not my car or money.

[eric65]

Say if you wanted to get "new" rods for a 455
I see the Crowers are about 750
I see a set of GM forged on EBay for about 600 maybe will end up higher??
I see a bunch of buy it now 220 to 400 dollar H-Beam and other types on Ebay as well

To me 750 is big bucks on the budget end of things and then you gotta get the rest done to them .... but is the quality there on these cheaper EBay deals so I reckon you get what you pay for?
Or will there cheapies be better than my stock casts??

Where do you draw the line for a maybe rare occurance track motor??
Is it better to spend the bucks else where on my resto..????

Just make sure my revs are under 5800 I reckon

I have cast originals rods are .020 ovr ,,, with cast .030 pistons with a N crank???

Planning 6X heads and a 66 tri-power 3:23 posi and 4 speed muncie

[Cliff Ruggles]

It's been mentioned a few times about limiting the engine rpm's as insurance when using the cast rods. Consider this, to date we've broken one driveshaft and two stock 8.5 carriers right on the starting line. I wasn't looking at it, but the tach no doubt went off the scale! It promted me to install a rev-limiter this season.

Not much has been said about power level(s) either. We are making a LOT more power these days that the stock rods were designed for. The factory stepped up to forged rods for the somewhat "anemic" 73-74 Super Duty engines. What do you think they would have installed in most of the engines we build for our cars now? My warmed over 455 street engine makes 494hp/560tq, would cast rods have been used in this engine by GM?......Cliff

[Bad Karma]

Very good point cliff

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"Consider this, to date we've broken one driveshaft and two stock 8.5 carriers right on the starting line. I wasn't looking at it, but the tach no doubt went off the scale!"

That one sentence says a WHOLE LOT! Miss a gear, break a part, so much for keeping the rpm under 5500.

Tom V.

[JSchmitz]

So, It's cast rods and use the couple hundred saved for a rev limiter. SOLD!!

[WDCreech]

Originally Posted by JSchmitz

So, It's cast rods and use the couple hundred saved for a rev limiter. SOLD!!

quote by Tom Vaught; "I personally would not even use the cast rods as weight for my boat anchor. There are better boat anchor materials."

You need to go back and read a few of the posts, carefully!

[PONTIAC DUDE]

There is nothing wrong with FACTORY rebuilt rods.

There is nothing wrong with installing ARP bolts in a mild upgraded Pontiac engine.

Depending on my previous statement on page one.

I don't recommend it, but ..............Have used, raced and taken them into Star Trek land............ where no man has gone before.
Never broke one, even on 200hp of Nitrous and 7 lbs of boost in various different applications.
But like I have stated before.

Application determines useage for any product.

[gold bird]

cool dude

[blizzard9500]

Take it for what it is worth, I hate buying the Chinese stuff as well, but I did, I bought a set of Cat rods (Cheaper copy of the Eagles), we checked the sizing and it was very good, checked the balance and it was off a little more than I was hoping for but was able to balance, was very impressed with dimensional check of rods especially width on big end in crank journal width clearance. I was told by my machinist that the Asian market has very good materials now days but they do lack the casting technology of "graining the metal" the way an American foundry does. He was impressed with what we got for the price, how ever I would highly recommend to check all specs before installing. Dave.

[Bad Karma]

For me it's just piece of mind from my past experiences with cast rods. I know there shouldn't be an issue like Pdude says if its under 5500 in mild combo's. I prefer not to risk anything when possible. Again I agree with Pdude where he says anything can happen with any part factory or aftermarket this is the truth. I also agree with the poster who said when it comes to cast rods its not IF they will break its when will they break. Thats been my experience with cast rods. I also push hard on my engines when challenged to a imprompt tu street race. A rev limiter will help keep those rods alive though on the same token. Something I didnt have until my second lemans. My logic also comes from the perspective that everything I have done I must pay for as in all the labor of engine removal and re install. So To spend alittle more on rods will save me headaches of extra labor in the future. If I could still do all the work myself like before I hurt my back I would probobly look at it different since the labor was free.
In keeping with that logic its why I will over build my next engine to make sure it lives along time in the engine bay saving me money on labor in the long run.
The other reason I prefer after market rods is because If you ever want to add nitrous or superchargers its already upgraded along with the fact I plan to run forged pistons.
I am the type of person who will always get the better choice when money permits because if I dont I will agonize over my choice later if there is an issue of some kind. Thats why I know if I chose to re use the stock rods withing two weeks one would let go and cost me the whole engine. So I would kick myself in the butt saying I should have bought the better rods and blah blah. Thats just me though. When I dont know better it doesnt matter it will run fine for 400K miles revving to 7k all day until I learn of an issue and the next day the engine gets the issue! I'll shut up now blabbering on pain meds.

[form406]

im on such a low budget if i toast my rods i just put another motor together and save $60. an hour and learn something or run here and ask questions...i got lucky on my current motor. after toasting 2 rods in my 462(whole motor actually) i found a used 406 shortblock balanced with .30 trw's for $300. ...resized, re-ringed and honed + bearings...runs great...BUT..my next motor will have forged rods no matter what...what i comes down to is forged rods are better than stock cast but the proper caring machine work has to be done (as in all cases with any mechanical parts) or your investment is wasted...

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by WDCreech

You need to go back and read a few of the posts, carefully!

WDCreech, Thanks for the suggestion. But, I don't need to go back and re-read anything. My memory is still good enough for that. I value the opinion of Tom V. I also value my own.

I was actually kidding. I thought the faces would give you a clue. Guess not.

I agree with a lot of the argument for forged rods. I just don't share the opinion that cast rods should be discarded in mild builds. In light of this discussion, my opinion has been swayed slightly. I haven't built an engine in many years. Thanks to my cast rods (KIDDING HERE). So, I haven't had to ponder this topic. Everyone draws their opinions from their experience and logic. My experience, and the experience of my friends, with cast rods has been excellent. So, my logic follows suite. Some people can't stand it if everyone doesn't agree with them. The fact that we all don't agree on this doesn't bother me at all. With that, i think the horse has just about had it.

P.S. WDCreech, I found your post to me somewhat condescending. If this was not your intent I'll lighten up. Third shift makes me very defensive (cranky).

[WDCreech]

I didn't mean for you to take my post as condescending at all! If I were about to put stock cast rods in even a street cruiser, I would hope someone would talk me out of it because, with a Pontiac, it's hard not to wring it out once in a while. A revlimiter is not a cure all. I had mine set at 7200 for my 474 (race only) and I was against the limit going through the lights, so I bumped it up to 7400. When I rolled the "indestructable" TCI sprag, coming off of the line, the engine went to 8300. When I took out the stock 1.76 planetaries, it went to 7800. So ***** happens and I don't want to see anyone building a Pontiac do something that they may regret one day.

[convgto]

I had my 389 stock rods resized, checked for straightness and harden by shot peening and used arp bolts. See pic (4200 rpm, 1000 miles on build, first time checking her out) and you see why i am using eagle h-beams in my 455 new build. Ken

[Tom Vaught]

While I agree with Kenny (PDude) that there might be places for factory rods, I personally never seem to be in one of those places! LOL!

The rest of the combination says a lot too!

Marth Palbykin ran his Twin Turbo engine with Eagles when they first came out and never hurt them to my knowledge over three years at 1600+ hp.

Another racer I knew went through three sets of Eagles and a couple of blocks because he detonated the engine and no rods will tolerate that deal for long.

The Rod's brand isn't everything. The engine builder/ racer has something to do with the deal too!

Tom V.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

From reading these posts I gather that ALL engines require aftermarket rods????


There are a lot of limited budget Pontiac people out there that aren't into RACE mode and just wanting a basic rebuilt with a cam that has a slight lope to impress their friends. All Pontiacs will twist the tires with the stroke available anyway.

This is the Street Section isn't it?????

What purpose does it serve to install H-beam rods on a cast piston $1200/$1400 rebuild with a very mellow cam ?????

Or even with Forged Sealed Power pistons with H-beam rods on a basic 400 rebuild with a #068 cam?

Am I missing something here????