[RAIV55]

Originally Posted by dammen8

Here is just a thought, and not to take anything away from this idea, maybe it said but do you use factory caps with this? I just was figuring out a price to do up a 400 block, and by the time I had all the parts and maching work I was already at $2000-$2200 on wasted machine work and parts so now you add in a girdle which is how much 500-1000? I am probably wrong but I thought the buick one was around 1000 so now you have 3000+ into a factory block? I dont know but it does not make much sense to me....Like I said I am in no way taking away from this idea because I am sure that people would buy it and it is a good idea, just wondering if it is too late....

Chad

Clearly, if a person has the bucks the aftermarket blocks make a lot of sense, but even after forking out $3500 there is still considerable expense preparing it to assemble. For some, using the stock block is economically feasable, not everyone spends $2000+ on block work. The shop I work at will line hone, deck with a BHJ block true, bore and torque plate hone for less than $400. In my opinion that leaves a guy with a nicely machined block and a few bucks left over.

So far rfb92345 hasn't indicated that he was selling the girdles or even what the price will be if he decides to do so. At this point I look at it as an alternative and an engineering exercise, as such I'm interested.

[Tim Corcoran]

Certainly the IA II is a great block and a good starting point for a high end build up. From what I understand there is still quite a bit of machine work to get the IA II ready for assembly. For example, do I want to risk using a cast crank on my $3500+ block? Oh I better get longer rods with this long stroke and big bore, I got this much into it I can't use this 40 year old design oil pump, better get a Titan, Oh with all these cubes I need some serious head flow, better get some high port E-Heads or the new brand X heads, and on and on. So I guess we all have different performance goals. I can see a nitch for the old iron girdle set up. Just my .02

Tim C

[dammen8]

I see what you are saying, I am not sure what either of the aftermarket blocks require as far as machine work is concerned, but I do know that you can get either block in a small bore so you do not need to get all the fancy heads and oil pump. I am pretty sure that there is not a mandate that you have to build a 500+ cubic inch engine first time out. I do understand that you would not want to use a cast crank in a 3500 dollar block but if a person was starting out with a 400 block you would have 3000+ into it anyway, so maybe you would not want to use a cast crank in your 3000+ factory block... Now for somebody that already has had a block that they are running and have already done all the upgrades then this would be the next step, I know I would have bought one if I already had $2000 into a block and I wanted some more insurance to protect my investment....I am not agianst this I wish one would have been availible a long time ago but there was not and now I have to cracked 455 blocks sitting on the garage floor $4000+ sitting there just staring at me boy if I had it to do over...

Chad

[dammen8]

wow that had to be a surprise when you opened it up

Chad

[dammen8]

if you do not mind me asking, what all was done to the block?

Chad

[rfb92345]

I agree that if one was starting a full on Pontiac engine, a good starting point would be the IA2 block. Unfortunatly most buildups don't start that way, I know ours didn't. Also, this is an engineering excersize that I wanted to share with you Pontiac guys. It was not my intent to produce these on a commercial level, although if we end up doing a few extra, I have no problem with that. Let's just see if we have a workable part first. Just my feelings on the matter.

[jjump59]

put me in line. got all the work done for a build up but as usual i've added go fast stuff until i'm concerned the block won't handle it.

[mikeb]

FWIW my SBF ford buddies generally view the girdle as a nice piece to keep the block together WHEN it splits (SBF splits somewhere above 500hp) and save the rotating assy. In that application it doesn't seem to help much one way or the other given the existing designs.

I would think that a worthwhile girdle design would help to prevent the main webs from cracking in the first place, and therein lies the challenge.

[Tim Corcoran]

Ok now that you have my name in lights and have me eating crow, when you say stroker, I suppose you mean a 4.21 or 4.25 stroke? Now that is a 455 not a 400. When I said 400 I meant an engine with a 3.75 stroke, a lot easier on the block. That is a very cool picture, I am sure it's not cool to the owner though.

Tim C

[BVR421]

Originally Posted by Tim Corcoran

Ok now that you have my name in lights and have me eating crow, when you say stroker, I suppose you mean a 4.21 or 4.25 stroke? Now that is a 455 not a 400. When I said 400 I meant an engine with a 3.75 stroke, a lot easier on the block. That is a very cool picture, I am sure it's not cool to the owner though. Tim C

Tim, I didnt want you eating crow I just wanted to illustrate a 400 split, no doubt the 4.25 crank added some side load, BTW, the trans looks even worse. LOL $$$$'s reconstruction. I havent even pulled the motor yet. Have to get my Bird out of the shop first. Jim Thompson suffered the aggravation in StLouis at the GTOAA race and I bought the car when he returned. He is bored with 10s and is half done with a low 8 car now.

HIS..solid factory type mounts to factory frame

[rfb92345]

That's us, we have added go fast stuff and now we are worried about the bottom end. So we just want some insurance. We also plan a little juice, so I want the crank, but more so, the block to stay healthy. One thing I may ask all of you, is that I need to fab a windage try, since the stocker wont fit, any suggestions on fabing one up ? As in material ? I was thinking of using that perforated metal and forming up one to bolt to the girdle and fit close around the pan. Anybody have a pic of one they have made ? Maybe making it a double layer deal, off setting the holes so they dont line up, I dont know, just thinking again.

[lemans411]

i am interested in a girdle any ballpark price??

[rfb92345]

I really dont know yet. Shouldn't be to bad since the run time on the CNC doesn't look bad. Of course it depends on how many we run. I really hadn't planned on selling these, but we can run some extra, if there is enough interest. When we arrive on the finished product, I will get an idea of how many want them and then I will have a cost. The 3 center main caps will require some simple machining. You should be able to get that done locally from anyone that has a mill. It's mainly to get a proper fit to the mains. I will shoot some pics of the main caps after machining so you will get a better idea of what we are doing. As said before, this is an engineering excersize and all of your input is more than welcome. I don't profess to have all the answers. I figure that if someone thinks they have all the answers, hasn't heard all the questions yet. We are also going to make our own motor plate. I know BOP sells one, but that's not our style....lol. We like to make out own stuff. We are going to design one that uses a SBC water pump and timing cover. These guys at the strip are having a hard enough time trying to figure out what kind of motor is in our firebird, wait till they see it this time. "Hey, what kind of Chevy motor is that?"......I can hear then now.

[77TA]

I saw on HP TV one day a brace for a Ford small block that went under the intake in the valley to help prevent block spliting. This seems to be exactly the product needed that and a Gridle for the mains might make fora very stout set-up. This piece went between the cylinder banks and was set on dowels that were drilled and was bolted down looked pretty neat.

[Half-Inch Stud]

BVR421: did you have factory-positioned Motor Mounts or Engine Plates?

[rfb92345]

I'm trying to visualize this support you speak of. Sounds interesting. I happened to miss that episode of HPTV. I would think that a motor plate and mid plate would go toward supporting the block from spliting. I think that a girdle would also help, but offer more support to the web area. But then again, A IA2 block is the ticket, but most of us, like me, do things bacwards. There is something to say about running a stock block. I mean, let's at least keep one Pontiac part in the engine....lol.

[taff2]

Rfb, I looked into making a girdle for my twin turbo 400 project,not the halo type that the Ford boys use but a machined steel piece that bolts to the pan rails and over the top of the machined flat caps. I'm pretty certain that this would strenghten the bottom end of the block but I came to the conclusion that the amount of HP I wanted would break a cast crank anyway,probably sooner rather than later. I like you tend to make most of my own custom parts and have fitted a SBC electric water pump,I just fitted a flat ali plate where the original water pump was and bolted the electric pump to this plate(after a bit of grinding). It seems to work alright.

[rfb92345]

taff2......you may very well be right. All this may be just an excercise in peeing in the wind. Who really knows for sure.

[68post]

J&S Machine (south central IL)makes them for Olds engines, (about 4 - 5 yrs now). The halo girdle holds the weakling 403 windowed main web block together to aprx 600 HP. 403 Olds is probably the weakest design of a block ever made !

If you do not want to invest too much time into this project you may want to confer with Jim @ J&S. He makes several versions of smallblock and bigblock Olds, and even a 5 main halo with add-on side rails to make it a full girdle. www.jsmachineoldsmobile.com

[rfb92345]

Thanks for the link.......we are going along with the project anyway. We just like to do things ourselves. We're kinda weird that way. The pictures were interesting. I know that the 403 is weak in the main area and requires all the support possible. I do need some input from you guys as to what is really needed for the Pontiac engine. We are at the point now where we need to determine if we need to go with a 3,4 or five main halo girdle. I really don't think it is necessary to tie it to the pan rail. I may be wrong though. One thought, though, is that it could be tied to the block, at the three center mains, via the bolt holes provided for a 4 bolt cap. Just thinking out loud here. Give me some input on this one.