[mikeb]

Yes, got about 3 years into it at the moment and about $7k spent so far. I worked a second part time job to pay for some of it. Still have a lot of money to go yet before it's all done.

I'm waiting for the allpontiac boys to come out with their new forged crank. If it never happens then I guess i'll have to wait some more for a billet. No cast crank in my IA2 block.

I have a stockish 455 in the bird right now (runs high 11's) for fun while I work toward my goal. It's a stock rod/crank deal with TRWs and good rod bolts. It really would not benefit from a girdle at my current power level.

I looked hard at building my current stock block and the horsepower that I would need to reliably run what I wanted to run and after a lot of deliberation I decided that from a personal safety standpoint I would be much safer with better parts at that power level (1000+ hp).

So the IA2 project brews slowly, and I wait. My choice.

Now if my performance goals were different and a properly built stock block combo would suffice then this girdle seems like an obvious good addition to a buildup.

There certainly is a niche for this product in the marketplace.

[dammen8]

Originally Posted by screamingchief

Are you going to use a cast crank in the IA2?
.

I am, Now ask why...well before you ask it is because that is what I have...but by your theory I should be building another stock block...since I already have so much money into my combo, I mean I cold just pull the caps again and the mega brace pay for all the machining just to have another 2 year timebomb.....I dont think so.

You see and from my previous posts I have already taken out two factory blocks @ 700hp. these did have the tricks done to them, you know billet caps, 4 bolt, filled block, mega brace...all stress relieved and I got 2 years out of each so now I have $4000.00 sitting on the garage floor that I can not use but for some reason I am having a very hard time putting them in the trash. Did you want them? I was lucky that I did not have the block come completely apart @ 137+mph because it would cost alot more to replace the car than what a new block would cost, not to mention my life and possibly the person in the other lane...I have never lost a crank except for the one that my block got rid of for me, maybe I have been lucky. So I took some time off until I can afford a block yep it will be aftermarke and yep it will be a 4.190 bore with a cast crank and 4 year old rods. Maybe when I have some more money saved up then I will be able to get a forged crank and some bigger pistons, but that is in the future for me right now it is just about a block...

And remember that not all people work at or have a inexpensive machine shop to go to, as for me I drive 8 hours just to get the block honed, and that is one way...For all the people that do have a hand full of blocks sitting in your back yard and a machine shop on every corner and are willing to put your life at risk then by all means push the factory block. I do not know if the main girdle will help or not only time will tell, I hope it does but all the money for the work...I dunno

I do not want this to sound like I am b*tchin about this product, I am just typing fast as my 16month old is in the bath so I have no time to proof read, sorry

Chad

[Tom Vaught]

Food for thought, you are breaking blocks at 700 hp. Marty Palbykin was running for three years with a factory block and a DIFFERENT power adder at twice your HP. Ever think that the power adder you were using was not the best one for the program?

Tom V.

[dammen8]

No power adder Tom.... And I know what you are saying, I am feeling like the aftermarket block is a bit overkill, kind of like a tubed out full tube chassis race car that runs 13's....I do know of Marty's accomplishments and I applaud him, he was deffinately ahead of his time.

Chad

[screamingchief]

So here we go again,back to the begining,once a person has had a failure they're back at square one anyways and I totally agree the use of an IA2/MR1 makes sense,I've said so like three times now.

The cast crank thing is just to make a point,like P-dude pointed out,once you gain strength in one area the weakness will just move on to the next area to exploit,and I agree that is pretty much true,so what ends up being the new "weak link" in the chain once the block is taken care of?

There isnt such a thing as a bulletproof engine,that would be a myth,and accidents can happen for so many more reasons than just an engine failure,will you feel better if an accident happens because a slick fails,or a trans locks up on you?

Nobody should operate under the assumption that any of this ensures absolute saftey,it does'nt.

Everybody has to use they're own judgement for that level they're pursuing as to what exactly it is that makes or breaks the need for something like either of these products discussed,now dammen8 you're quite a bit faster than alot of other folks who would be closer to the "target" consumers for a product like the girdle would be best aimed at I would think.

For you the use of the stronger block was more than prudent,it was a necessity,and your situation dictated you have your operation down for a while as a result,I can see that.

I respect that too.

Thing is not everybody is pushing 600-700+ HP to play with their race cars,like I said before mine wont need that much,now the next car will,and that one will get what it needs.

I'm not going to carry on much further with this,like someone said earlier there seems to be more than a few schools of thought on this,and likely neither side will move off their views much,and thats fine,really there is no 100% correct answer to this dilemma.

I just could'nt see why the possibility of a product like this existing,or being used would be shot down by some.

Maybe according to this school of thought NHRA/IHRA should just outlaw the use of factory blocks completely for all classes except stock eliminator???

Wait a minute,even some of those are running in the elevens,hmmmm...

(That was sarcasm folks,puuhhlleeeezzz dont go ape$#!t on me.)

[PONTIAC DUDE]

I'm not dis-agreeing. Like ya say. It's the person's money. I have no problem with that. But always explain the down side before ya start the build depending on what they want. A pic was posted on major carnage in another topic. I don't think that engine was in the 550hp range when that happened. Ya think a girdle would have helped? Maybe, maybe not.

Sooooooooooooo, at what hp/torque/ET level do ya make the jump to Supe Light Speed and the IA 2 AllPontiac block?

JMO: If your building higher hp levels or contiplating Nitrous in the 700/750 hp range and above............... Don't whine (cry if ya must) if castastropy happens.

I guess it's like seat belts.

Your still safe in the car with or without them.............. just when the accident or impact (Racing, hp/torque) happens sometimes ya (it) live sometimes ya don't.

BTW: What is the price of a main stud girdle if produced? That factors into the equasion rather heavily.

[Yentl Marmelstein]

Originally Posted by screamingchief

2-3 hundred bucks for a girdle if it could add some margin of stability to their stock block combos.

$300 for a girdle?

On what planet?

I talked to Mike Kopchick at Rage Racing about an aluminum girdle for the AllPontiac.com aluminum block. $1800, just for starters.

On THIS planet, too.

[Yentl Marmelstein]

I know people who had girdles built for BBCs that ran in Top Alcohol. This was before the advent of the KB Olds skirted blocks.

With the between-rounds bearing maintenance, main girdles became a PITA and these folks wised up and switched to the hemi.

[Tom Vaught]

I agree that the Skirted Block that Scott mentioned is a much better deal. Course then people would say it is not a PONTIAC.

I tried to get Bob and Frank to add the skirted block provision to the aluminum block but it was no deal. ALL CURRENT ALUMINUM production Blocks from Ford and others have skirts and cross bolted mains like the Fords and Hemis.

The Girdle is a crutch to allow you to run to a certain point with a given amount of power/ detonation. An engine without detonation may only need a splayed cap vs the girdle deal. Marty'd deal was a splayed cap but no girdle on a 67 GTO block. 1500+ hp 1400 lb/ft of torque.

Tom V.

[screamingchief]

$300 for a girdle?

On what planet?

I talked to Mike Kopchick at Rage Racing about an aluminum girdle for the AllPontiac.com aluminum block. $1800, just for starters.

BTW: What is the price of a main stud girdle if produced? That factors into the equasion rather heavily.

Your both right,I forgot for a second we own pontiacs,so we deserve to pay 6X's what the SBF guys pay for their girdles...

Hey folks! get all your pontiac parts from Bend&spreadM pontiac parts,so when your looking for pontiac parts just remember "Bend&spreadM".



Yeah,that never gets old!

And yet,rarely do I complain about having to pay a premium to own a pontiac.

That was just a figure used to give an approximation of what some might consider an acceptable buy in for a product like this,looked at what some of the other brands are paying for theirs,but again forgot were talking pontiacs here.

But always explain the down side before ya start the build depending on what they want.

Again,for like the fourth time now.

I never said using these on a new build would be the target for this product,rather existing stock block combos already in use,installed likely when refreshing the short block or such.

A pic was posted on major carnage in another topic.

Seen those pics dude,and most opinions have the block as a victim of the crank failure,and those blame the fact it was an off shore cast crank as well.

I know you commented about that some on that "other" board,and I agree with the points you made in those post and here,and said as much in my previous post,all I've been trying to say here is there may be a place for this type of product if it were affordable and easy to use in certain lesser HP situations.

Let me put it this way,would anybody here say a stock block is "better off" without a girdle altogether?

The fact is there will probably always be some people out there running on stock blocks,at various HP levels,are they "better off" without them?

The funny thing is I've seen some of those people who've commented against this idea,selling exactly the same parts they say we should'nt even consider (worked stock blocks),for significant sums of money,now were the folks considering purchasing those items foolish,and are those attempting to sell them those items doing them a disservice by doing so?

If they were there is some terminology for that kind of thing...

But I wont drag this down to that level,like I said this really is'nt going anywhere anymore,and this is just not important enough to me,so why bother continuing this further,as well now that ScottM has decided to join the party I know where this will be going,so I bid all a fond farewell on this thread.

Happy holidays all.

[GOAT8U2]

$1800 for a girdle???

If there is enough interest in this I know a few companies that might want to do it. One company already has a GN girdle for $365 and there are not more 3.8L GN motors out there than 400's or 455's. I can not see this going over $600 even for a Pontiac.

[rfb92345]

I think that the girdle/main support with the spacers, will fall in the $240 range. You'll need to get longer main studs, not a problem. The caps have to be machined slightly, but nothing that you couldn't get done locally. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to send them to me to be done, although that is an option. You'll have to handle the windage tray deal your self. We are making one for our application and will post some pics ASAP.

[Brian Baker]

Poor preperation is what grenaded that block. He was obviously making some serious HP, but the water jackets weren't filled? Not even to the bottom of the freeze plugs? And nobody has answered the question yet on what he had for main caps (but I'm willing to bet they weren't 4-bolt billet). That block would have exploded just as hard with a 35 year old factory crank.

[taff2]

Tom,can you tell us what Marty did to the block to make it live at that 1500hp level? Did he use a thick 1/4" ali rear motor plate?

[10inchbuick]

I may be able to help out here.As my screen name mentions I am a buick guy.We run a cast ductile iron girdle that incorperates all five main caps and ties them to the pan rails.We have to machine approx .250 off the top of the main caps in order to install it.TA performance sells it for around 500.00 with all related hardware.
We need to step up to one around 650 hp but I know a few guys that have made more with out one.Even with the girdle the main webs end up ripping out of the block.It starts in the main cap bolt holes and travels up the web.Either that or the block splits up the main oil feeds.We have found the failures really start happening when you start spinning the things 7k plus and 800 plus hp .Ultra light parts help but it becomes hard when the only aftermarket crank we have is a moldex billet that weights 80-95 lbs.I haven't heard of one lighter than this.Our highest hp guy out right now is around 1500hp blown alky deal but he goes through atleast one block a year.The girdle does help contain all the junk inside the motor when the block goes.
So do block girdle's help yes but they are not the end all be all to the weak block issue? NO.It's the only thing the buick guys have right now so we make do.If you are going to push it past 800hp save up the coin and buy a IA2 block.I just wish Bulldog would get our block done

[dammen8]

Hey 10inchbuick, Anyword on when that block from bulldog is going to be done? I have a friend that is waiting to get one, he has been waiting almost 2 years now. He was making around 650hp but split a cylinder, he also has the main girdle from T/A performance, I know he does not want another time bomb so he is waiting for the aftermarket block..

Chad

[10inchbuick]

I'm waiting on mine.They were supposed to be shipping last month then this month well it's the 14th and nothing yet.That's all I'll say on the block issue.I don't want to hyjack this thread

[rfb92345]

Main girdle/support is back from the machine shop. Fits perfect, but we have a small clearance problem with the pan at two points. No big deal. We will go back into the program and make the changes and run it again. So far so good. Film at 11.

[CPL.BEYDLER]

Get some Pictures of that girdle! Is there any problems with the stock oil pan as far as clearances? What is included with the girdle? How much does it cost? I've never heard
such a product.