[Baron Von Zeppelin]

DAN : Thats part of what my primary reason is for saying this engine unit number information needs to be de-classified.

Say you got a Car that needs a late April block to fit an 05B build. You find a block with suitable date. You pop WS and your VIN into it. The unit number is not going to be way far off as to be easily identified as being "out of sequence" because the sequence goes more in line with the date than it does anything. It doesn't become as one with the Car until it all goes together at the end. But then it is a VERY specific number at that point. And it can't be guessed or approximated or left as-is and be dead on the money if the actual documented info can be accessed.

[Rx:GTO daily]

You guys are totally into this and I'm totally luvin' followin the discussion! Since PHS isn't providing this info, could there be any knowledge to be gained by all of us posting these #'s here and letting someone crunch the #'s?? Would all vin #'s be necessary? In other words, could anyone that's paranoid omit a number or 2 from the vin part, but include all other numbers and full MUN/EUN, etc. and have that be of benefit to the guys "working" the numbers.? I would gladly add my numbers to the list, but other threads have made me a bit paranoid about listing every last detail. How about we all omit last 2 vin numbers...does that invalidate the the other info?? Just a thought!

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Rx : We can do all that and develop a "range". But that's not going to get us what we really need.

I have been tossing this subject around since 1985 here and there. Sold somewhere between 200-300 HiPo Pontiac engines from 85-93 and have never been able to develop a certained pattern that could be exact. Only the dating can be somewhat patterned.

In my experience I have noted : the unit number is the first stamping done to the block, perhaps as soon as it's cool enough. It is always precisely stamped so I think it's done by machine. The block code is hand stamped and comes later after it is determined how it will be applied and fitted WS,YS, XH, etc... (which is why some are not that straight in line with unit number or heavy/light from one side or the other/overstamped/etc...). The VIN comes last and is hand stamped upon determining the exact Car and equipment/accessories/pulleys/brackets/etc... at final assembly.

Having the exact unit number for that exact Car is the only thing that will ever matter to much degree. Since the date is cast with the block, and the sequence/unit number is stamped shortly thereafter. A "range" is not really all that beneficial concerning the re-stamping of acceptable date coded replacement blocks. But would still be interesting to see Dan do the crunching and establish a range - nonetheless.

Just hoping to somehow create enough interest to create a stir. Especially now that we are in the 6 figure helm. Maybe they are waiting til we hit 7 figures before they drop the Bomb ?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

The Silver 69 on eBay might not be in the "range" for that unit number and build date. If Dan C. had his range finder dialed in we could tell a little more, maybe. But it would BE WILD and one Heck of a freak coincidence if it were legit and documented by the factory engine unit number information as being exactly correct and authenticated by PHS paperwork. And an actual accidental meeting of the numbers. That would flip a lot of us out ! (which is mathematically possible - correct me if I'm wrong Dan ).

But as it stands - we can't actually prove or disprove anything - so about 95% of anybody who has ever even paid half way attention to these unit numbers would just about have to bet the Farm that somebody made a few too many wild swings on this block.

You may be able to tell just by looking it over, and then again maybe not. Auction information is sketchy and vague. Maybe they just jumbled some of the numbers going from the Car to the computer and mixed some things up. The revision on the ad is dated Oct.26, 2005 ? Like it's a re-list of a previous auction maybe. No block date listed and a Jan.68 intake with 71 carb.

The numbers don't hit on much with this auction and no way would I be bidding 33k without going to see this Car. I'd want a close-up picture of the block code/unit number stampings before I would even leave the house. If it's mostly what he claims - it's worth some thick dough in that condition. It still has 6 days to go.

[dr-doug]

Here is one for you that I know is correct, I'm the second owner(had it for 15 years) MUN 0216895 car has a build of 11C(3rd week of November), serial 11765_. This is a '70 GTO. Have protect-o-plate and all original paperwork...Do you suppose they made 100,000 complete engines a month, 3300 a day? I would speculate that if that is the case, the engine number on a '70 should be in a range that is 67000- 100000 higher than the vin number, but of course that is based on an assumption that both the MUN and the VIN started at or around 0, and also assume that production of engines always was running @ a month ahead of final vehicle assembly.

My point of both of my posts on this subject is that there may be a range of 100K or so that you would assume an engine would fall, but the exact 7 digits have nothing to do with the vin number of a car...in my opinion.

DW

[johnta1]

What's the date code on the block?

Here's a couple of blocks/VIN's

1970 YS Date code: J209 VIN - 1110xx : EUN - 0226748 Car - 1970 Formula Plant: N - Norwalk
1970 WS Date code: J029 VIN - 1152xx : EUN - 0162030 Car - 1970 Judge Plant: R - Arlington

Remember these had different body plant origins.

I agree with dr-doug, the EUN or whatever have no connection number wise.

[dr-doug]

I'll post it like you did John, add your plants if you know them.

1970 YS Date code: J229 VIN - 11765x : EUN - 0216895 Car - 1970 GTO Freemont 11C

[johnta1]

I added my plant codes above.

Interesting Doug, if your date code is correct, the block was cast 2 days later than my YS but has a lower EUN.
They (EUN) may not be stamped at the foundry? Or maybe just when they were being shipped out to the different plants?

[johnta1]

I'll have to see if I can find the PHS on the Judge for the build date of the car.
I'll post the build date of the Formula when I can.

[md1twal3]

This may have already been established, but could the EUN be more closely associated with the block cast part number than the actual two letter code? I ask because it seems that there are lots of vehicles that use the same cast number that get different codes (WS, YZ, YS, ect) assigned to them based on application. Given the higher number in the EUNs as it relates to body number this thought may make more sense...

thoughts?

[dancolkate]

Hey John,
Just wanted to say your site is really good. Lots of good info there. After we get this figured out, you can add a EUN search to your database!!

[Rzepka_R]

Guys,

The engine sequence number is stamped on the machined surface of the front of the block, not in a raw cast area. It was stamped after that machining operation and the two digit code stamped long after that, once the engine was scheduled or all ready built into what it's final form was to be.. With any casting/machining line, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to have a sequence number lower on a block cast a few days later then another.. Sometimes it's first in - first out, sometime last out - first in when it comes to machining raw castings..

I should have looked back at some of the numbers before I started typing, but I think I read in a book somewhere that 1965 was record year of close to a million cars so to use that just as a reference we probably have close to a million engine sequence numbers for every year of production..

Just using really rough numbers... if you manufacture close to a million engines in a production year and take a year as maybe 10 months, you're looking at 100,000 a month! Pretend for a second they work 7 days a week producing engines, that's 3,200 engines a day! Working three full shifts that's 133 on hour! Don't forget this isn't way out there, the Pontiac plant alone pumped out finshed cars at a rate of like 80 an hour! Looking back to my case with the 1966 GTO with two cars built at the same plant about 3,000 V8's apart from each other, yet engine sequence numbers close to 60,000 apart.... Well, that's only 18 days or so different in an engine build number when you consider how many they're pumping out..

Rich

[Rzepka_R]

Dr Doug...

Your car built 3rd week of November with an engine sequence of 216,895 and mine (yes, totally different year and such, but...) built 2nd week of March (block casting numbers in the begining of Feb) with a engine sequence starting with 409xxx.... Well, the math of somewhere around 100,000 a month starts to make sense...

At the same time with engines getting pumped out at that rate, the "error" with any kind of "range" on engine sequence numbers to car build dates would be HUGE! In the time it would take to ship engines across the country litterally thousands and thousands more would have been assembled and used closer to home.. Come to think of it, hundreds and hundreds would have been assembled in the time it took to load up ones getting shipped out

Rich

[Held for Ransom]

dr-doug,
Your car was built approx. 5000 cars after mine. And about 33000 PEN (EUN, EPN, MUN or whatever) after mine. I collect the trim tag information off of Fremont cars and would like to add yours to my list. Could you PM or E-mail me? Thanks.

[Steve Hoog]

Here's a couple for the cause:

69-400 GTO 29R150072 9790071 D C049 YS 0582823

68-428 GP 8R118058 9792968 D I157 YH 164333

[Steve Hoog]

I'm doing an Excel data base on this for fun, I'm sure some of you already have a zillione but I only have my two and the five other I found in this thread. If anyone has any they consider non tampered and will share, here is what I'm collecting:

Year Cast Part # VIN Code EUN Date Code Car
1968 9792968 8R118058 YH 164333 I157 GP
1969 9790071 29R150072 YS 0582823 C049 GTO
1970 F11765X YS 0216895 J229 GTO
1970 N1110XX YS 0226748 J209 Firebird
1970 R1152XX WS 0162030 J029 GTO
1970 9799914 YZ 0461577 C120

It's a little out of wack from pasting in here, but I promise it looks good in the spread sheet.

[dancolkate]

Steve,
Great idea!

I've got a couple of 400's down stairs and I'll get all the numbers.

However I think we need to also record the trim tag info as well (if avail)

I suggest this this based on the following statement posted over on the CP site:

"A careful study of m.u.n.'s can help determine if a particular m.u.n. is POSSIBLE for a given car build date or not and is a LOT more precise than a block casting date. But it takes a TON of m.u.n. study to sort out actual engine assembly dates by m.u.n., so don't expect anybody to have casual knowledge about this"

[Steve Hoog]

That trim tags would only be relevent if you knew the motor came out of the car, is that correct? If so; that will really hurt the abilities to make a data base, as both of my motors are long seperated from the cars. I know they are original and accurate, but the cars are long ago crushed.

[LPete]

Here's mine from my '69. This car was built 07A in Fremont.

1969 9790071 9Z128477 WS 0698374 D219 GTO

['ol Pinion head]

Build a database... LOL, you're 17 years too late.