[Turbo Indian]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

$1800 to do a proper girdle for his future fuel block.

what is up with that! I know this is not a Pontiac part but girdles can be made for the Pontiac market a hell of a lot cheaper than that. just check this piece out
http://www.rjcracing.com/RJC_Buick_P...ne_girdle.html
like I said it's not a Pontiac part, but hey at least it's not a chebby part either. this little $400.oo part has allowed production motors with stock internals to hold up to easy 9's. cost for machine work to install is $100-$150.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by Turbo Indian

what is up with that! I know this is not a Pontiac part but girdles can be made for the Pontiac market a hell of a lot cheaper than that. just check this piece out
http://www.rjcracing.com/RJC_Buick_P...ne_girdle.html
like I said it's not a Pontiac part, but hey at least it's not a chebby part either. this little $400.oo part has allowed production motors with stock internals to hold up to easy 9's. cost for machine work to install is $100-$150.

That's a very nice piece...but it's flat and made to be bolted to a skirted block.

The Pontiac piece would be a little more complex due to the block not being skirted...hence the higher price. For a fuel application (such as Barcak's) it will also be cross-bolted.

[Turbo Indian]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

That's a very nice piece...but it's flat and made to be bolted to a skirted block.

The Pontiac piece would be a little more complex due to the block not being skirted...hence the higher price. For a fuel application (such as Barcak's) it will also be cross-bolted.

but couldn't you use a design simular to that but it would taper to the block @ the oil pan. (if you understand what I'm getting at) that way it is tieing all the mains & the block together, stoping the movement in the crank. or am I incorect.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by Turbo Indian

but couldn't you use a design simular to that but it would taper to the block @ the oil pan. (if you understand what I'm getting at) that way it is tieing all the mains & the block together, stoping the movement in the crank. or am I incorect.

Yes. That's what I am speaking of. I agree that $1800 for a main girdle is alot of money, but there is more involved into making one fit a Pontiac block that is non-skirted, and adding cross-bolts, than there is with this Buick V6 girdle. More material, more machining.

[CPL.BEYDLER]

Brian... what I mean is that, you dont' understand what the girdle is designed to do. As I read other comments about the center 3 caps moving around which I suspect they probably start doing at some point. At what power levels are we talking about when that happens? This girdle will bridge that gap between the unknown horse power street/stip pontiac crowd and the racers that want to build 500-600hp mosters. I ran my 400 into the 6500 range with only a 2 bolt cap. After I inspected the main bearings there was no sign of damage. with around 475 hp and 30 runs, I did not see any signs of cap movement. Running with a different motor combo in the future (550hp), I dont want to,and don't think I need to have a girdle that ties into the block just yet, putting that extra money into the heads or something eles. We understand that we could tie into the 4 bolts holes provided, tie also into a 4-bolt cap and aslo into the front and rear caps as well. Tying up front would be a tight fit because of the oil pan but who said olny stop there with this girde design knowing an aftermarket pan is avalable. For the 400-600hp pontiacs, 2 or 4 bolt caps, this girdle WILL "TIE IN" the main caps causing them to be more stronger, and resisting cap distortion. If your making 700+hp you dont need this girdle. to lighten things up- I remember someone saying "just puy a chevy in it"

[rfb92345]

As I stated before, this project was started in order to come up with a piece that can benefit all of us Pontiac racers. A lot of us started with stock engines and have increased power to the point of putting a lot of strain on the stock block. Maybe some of us should have started with the IA block, but we didn't. Hindsight is always 20/20. For those of us that are in the position of making what we have work, I think we need something like this. I needed to start somewhere, so we made this girdle/support and put it out there for all of your comments and criticism. All your comments and recommendations were appreciated. Some comments got heated and some didn't, but who cares. We all have a common goal and that's what counts. So now we need to discuss where we go from here.
Right now we have a 3 main girdle/support that fits under a stock pan. We could easily tie it into the existing extra bolt holes and and basically have a 4 bolt setup. I think this is a valid improvement. Instead of a simple spacer, we would machine a part to slide over the 4 bolt studs, then drop the girdle/support over that and torque it down. It would still fit under the stock type oil pan.
The next step would to tie it into the pan rail as some have suggested. One piece would slide over the main studs and bolt to the rail, then the support would slide over that and tie everything together. This of course would require pan modifications. This would be the ultimate setup and would tie the main cap to the pan rails as some of you have desired to do.
I think that we have decided at this point to go ahead and do the 4 bolt type, so we should have a prototype of that soon. We will post pictures as soon as we get it done. I would like to have some input as to the necessity of a pan rail type. If there is enough interest, we will work up a prototype and get some unput on that.
Some have suggested a 4 or 5 main type. I'd like some more discussion on that. Also, the pan rail type support will be a 3 piece design. A one piece design is very possible, but would be more expensive to produce. Same thing with the 4 bolt type. That would be a 7 piece design. So I need some discussion on the advantages of a one piece unit.
I check the links on the Buick type and saw that it was totally different than what wew have to work with. I also checked the Pontiacheaven site, but saw nothing there.

[misterp266]

rfb92345





I hope you didn't think people wouldn't tear you apart here. You're actually getting off pretty easy, there used to be a few who would rip you to shreds here. It's nice that someone actually has an idea and acts on it instead of just "talking" without acting. I think if you can tie into four bolt caps, you'll gain more acceptance. As for tying into the pan rails, it might become cost prohibitive. At that point, an aftermarket block might make more sense. FYI, I used to shift my two bolt 406 at 7500RPM all the time and it makes around 450HP. Bearings always looked good even after hundreds of passes.

Here's a picture of Steve's girdle on his fuel motor. I'm sure he could add some insight here.

[Tom Vaught]

As you can see from the pics Steve has done a great job of strengthening the BLOCK by tying the pan surface together and he also has a 6 bolt main cap deal. The outer cross bolts help keep the cap from "pinching in" at the bearing.

By making the skirt fairly thick this allows Steve to also make the material in the main cap above the bearing much thicker which makes the cap even stronger.

Steve has not tied the top of the caps together but he may not have to with the much greater material above the bearing and the wide thickness of the caps.

The only better solution to do to Steve's deal would be to make a skirted block like a 427 Ford Shelby aluminum block:
with two bolt mains going downward in the normal manner and cross bolted 4 bolt mains (one at the bottom near the pan rail and one near the top of the cap). This would eliminate all movement in the caps and the block in the vast amount of the applications.

Tom V.

ps I keep preaching for a fully skirted block to Bob C. for very high hp applications. Like 3000 hp!

[Ron]

With this style of cap support how would install a windage tray and or a crank scraper. It appears there would not be room for either with this design.

[Tom Vaught]

My thought is that the crank scraper could be made a given thickness out of good hardened material and the side it mounted on could have the skirt machined that much smaller.

Install the scraper, install the girdle, and torque the caps.

As far as a windage tray, that is a whole different deal

Tom V.

[Brian Baker]

Mr. P266 has very valid points. I don't think a full girdle to the pan rails would benefit much. Like he said...cost prohibitive (may as well go to an IA-2 block if you're going that far).

Steve Barcak's setup is a whole different animal. Making in excess of 2000-HP with a nitro' blown/injected '59 389 block. He needs it and fabbing a custom pan is not an issue.

I think the smartest move, both from an economics standpoint, and an application standpoint, would be to take the existing girdle and modify it to anchor down into the outer bolt holes that would normally be used for 4-bolt caps. Perhaps not as strong as a 4-bolt cap (or perhaps it may be)...nonetheless it would be a cheaper conversion than to install 4-bolt caps and have the associated align bore/hone performed.

The reason I say "perhaps it may be stronger" lies in the fact that, with a 4-bolt cap, you have better retention of the crank and bearing over the 2-bolt cap, but the cap is still going to "wave in the breeze" fore and aft in the block at high rpm. A 2-bolt cap with this girdle tied into the outer bolt holes of the block on either side of the cap won't provide as much meat around the bearing as a standard 4-bolt cap would, but unlike the 4-bolt cap by itself, it would be preventing that "waving in the breeze" effect of the caps.

Horsepower, rpm, and main caps:

I've run 2-bolt caps in a 455 block, with ARP studs, cast rods, JE pistons, and a factory crank up to 575-HP and limited the rpm to 5600-5800. Never had a lick of trouble. Having the block filled to the bottom of the water pump holes may have helped as well.

I've run 4-bolt splayed billet caps in a 455 block, with ARP studs, BME aluminum rods, Ross pistons, and an Eagle 4.25" crank in excess of 800-HP (on nitrous) and limited the rpm to 6800. That block was filled to the water pump holes as well, and I never had a lick of trouble with it.

[wheelsup]

Here's what we use on our wweak 455 Buick Blocks

http://www.taperformance.com/block.htm

[rfb92345]

Thanks for the link. That is a nice piece. It looks to me like the caps have to be machined in order to be captured tightly by the girdle. This is very doable, I think, on a Pontiac, but would it be enough for the guy that really should have a IA block to begin with. I haven't determined yet, from enough racers on this forum, that one is needed for the Pontiac. I have the resources and a very good working relationship with my machinist to do one. Just not sure how bad it's needed at this point.

[Jack Ferris]

I love those Buicks baby! Nice air shot!

[BruceWilkie]

For those that may not know the 59 block is substantially beefier than the 400/455 blocks. I have a 2 bolt block and a 4 bolt block (both 59's) the pan rail is beefier, the bulkheads are way beefier(resemble big block chevy) quite a bit more metal in the webbing,(Pontiac used this same block to make the 1st 421's just by opening the main bores and some additional machining) the main caps are approximately 1/4 inch taller from the parting line than any 400 cap I have seen. One of my blocks is .150" over (4.21 bore). I havent really compared the lifter galley area but wouldnt be surprised to find it is beefier there as well. These blocks are very strong, the main reason why Steve B uses them. Downside is the bell housing pattern doesnt fit any of the newer transmissions and there is no way to mount a starter on the block. I dont think Steves girdle would be as effective on the newer blocks due to the pan rail differences. JMO on that.

[Half-Inch Stud]

The Girdle will be rigid in the Thrust direction because the Caps are Waving are out of phase. This may help the Crank life at the Rod throws. I dunno about the Main bearing life though.

------------------------------------------------------------------
My concern on the Girdle effectiveness is: The Block's tendency to split the cam bearing web to #2 Main remains the same. That said, only a Rear Engine Plate will provide stress relief to the Main Webs.

That said, the Girdle is working, but the dominant block failure mode of a Split Block (at the Middle Mains) remains unchanged.

HIS

[Steve Barcak]

Hi all,
I have been on the road , just got back from 3 road trips picking up Pontiacs with my dually and 3 car trailer. 1st was to MI.I visited The Henry Ford just before Christmas, quite the place. 2nd was to extreme northern CA and this last one was to North Dakota and Kansas.

Good luck with your girdle. I respect and admire anyone who thinks up and makes stuff for our Pontiacs. About my lower ends ( I have made 3 so far) they were designed in the early 90s for my 577 program. That was superceded when the fueler became a reality. At that time the focus went to the smaller 389s that I made legal in my class. Now the 577 is a pet program. My lower end girdle is actually only part of the designed reinforcements to the block for the 577. There are side braces as well as top braces that bridge the top of both decks. It will be on display at Pontiac Heaven in April. It is actually well underway. Most of thee money has already been spent on it. I got both deck plates mounted and all the cylinders in one of the banks so it is well on the way. The Crower crank and rods have been collecting dust waiting to be used.
I have tried for a few years now to show the merits of '60 and older blocks but, it seems no one listens. Some here have been critical of it even though they no nothing about them. Ignorance must be bliss, go figure. If you are building something blown or very powerful and you don't need or can't use (due to class rules as an example) the benefits of the larger bores the aftermarket blocks offer than the '60 and older blocks have to be your best choice. The truth is, any block can break. Yes, even an aftermarket Pontiac block can be broken. It is easiler and cheaper to replace an early block than an aftermarket. I am not discouraging using an aftermarket. I am just saying there are applications were an early block is the best choice. I am planning on buying an aftermarket block or 2 myself when I have the money for some furture projects.
Pontiac even advertised that they took weight out of the motor in 61. The 60 and older blocks were over engineered and they are beefy. They are also cheap and there are also plenty to go around. They are expendable. How nice that is. They are also easier to fit into a tube car ( altered, funny or digger) too because the oil filter housing mount is closer to the center of the block. If you have ever tried to fit a regular Pontiac block in one ofthese chassis you already know this.
For other applications such as a door car or street car or boat, building an adaptor to mount a later bellhousinig/trans/starter would not be difficult to do either. it just takes a little thought and 'injun'uity.

My girdles will fit any Pontiac V8 including the MR1, IA. I cannot see a market for something like what I designed and built unless it is for nitro or very hard core blown/alky, or, perhaps some type of exteme endurance application.
$1,800 to build? I spent much more than that. The R&D alone, I don;t want to think about it. The other 2 cost less once the design was finalized. If I knew that guy could build them that cheap, I would have him do it instead LOL. Of course it costs MUCH less time and money to copy something that already exists than to create something from scratch. It takes a lot just to fit one to a block. If you think about main all 5 main cap placement on the block and how all the interlocking parts must fit properly, you can begin to understand. They are made modular so you can check bearings between rounds. The front caps were made from scratch, the others are from Program. All the fiitted pieces were done with the help of an EDM machine. If you have access to one, you are at an advantage.
Also, It may be difficult for some to inderstand but, I do believe that my girdle/lower end actually does strengthen the lifter area too. Think about it. If you look at a block from the front or rear. Think about the side loads placed on the block under power. My extra heavy duty lower end is designed extra wide to solidify the block structurally. I am not the best writer, but I think you get what I am thinking.

just some ideas.
Happy New Year. Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org

[rfb92345]

Half-Inch Stud..........That was my though exactly about the main caps "waving" out of phase. The only way anything would move is if they all waved together and I don't think that will happen, since they are all loaded differently at different times in the cycle. As far as the mains, this piece is 1/2 inch thick and supports across the top of the main caps. Wouldn't that offer support to the mains for better bearing life by keeping them round ?
Wouldn't a front plate and mid plate be effective in supporting the block from slitting ? Would a full 5 main girdle tied to the entire pan rail, similar to Steve Barrack's setup, be effective in supporting the block ?

[Half-Inch Stud]

Yes - That Girdle will get rid of the solo Cap-Waving - we can assume they are the Fundamental Cap-movement modes. The Crank will see that stiffness as a benefit.

I see little to no value to a front motor plate. The rear plate is key.

[Half-Inch Stud]

I tend to think the rear Main can ride as a steel solo Cap.