[Pecosbill]

Originally Posted by Andre

Again for all- lets discuss our views, but lets try to avoid getting this post pulled.

Amen to that! HOOK 'EM! (and I don't mean headers, either!)

[mskrom]

Andre, from your earlier posts, I read that your brake conversion included getting your parts from NAPA, as well as other sources, and that you ended up being unhappy with it- was your suggestion to buy an entire conversion kit from somewhere like our host PY, or Ames, OPG, etc.? The reason I ask is because I'll soon have to travel that road on my 66....

Thanks

[rzrektd]

Originally Posted by lkt1954

Andre,

With all the ranting from rzrektd, I would love to hear him on a chebby camero and the body in a box that you can purchase now. Where would that fall in his views???????

Larry

I am done critcizing Andre and I am done debating this topic for reasons that will continue to lead this very same past.

Andre, Have fun with your car. Like I said before your car looks good and I am sure you will enjoy it.

Lkt,

For your enjoyment, attached is a excerpt from year one on a camaro in a box. The must have not realized that you can transfer vins in florida. My brother should take his SSRS Camaro Conv. to florida so that his restoration is easier. Andre, Can he stay with you for a few months?

"One item conspicuous in its absence is the VIN tag. There is a cut-out in the factory location on the dash right up tight to the windshield, but there is no plate. These are not OE bodies, and do not come with a Vehicle Identification Number—they do, however, come with a manufacturer’s serial number stamped in four places on the body: top left rocker panel, right rear floor panel, right front door post and right front seat pan. We’ll leave you to your own devices if you’re starting with an original junker, but we should point out it’s technically illegal to transfer the VIN from one body to another. Read down to the bottom of this article, and you’ll see the lawyer-inspired disclaimer that these bodies are intended for off-highway and or display purposes only."

[rzrektd]

Originally Posted by Andre

I'm suprised to see there was no further discussion on this topic in the last 12 hours/ I hope we can beat the topic into the ground without personal attacks... especially against me.

I backed off out of respect. I'm out of this thread for good. If anyone wants to keep going, take it to PMs please.

Thanks!

[Andre]

I sure wish you would stick around, because you have got a bunch of great points to make. I am just hoping that we would all make the points objectively.

This really is a topic worth a lot of conversation regardless of what any of our opinion is.

And really, that is all that we are giving is our opinion. We are all "expert witnesses" to some degree.
It would be one for the courts to sort out if there was any wrongdoing. Does anyone have the ability to sort through case law to see how they handle things like engine restamping, epoxied head identifications, adding non factory options, using correct date coded motors from other cars that fall within the acceptable range etc etc.

I've been talking about this with my friends for 10 years. Everyone has a different level of what they find acceptable

[6tee7goat]

Wow, I had to check back and see why this thread received so many responses. Now I know. I wonder if the people building these cars 40 years ago would ever think, in their wildest dreams, that people would ever be discussing these issues.

Andre, I just wanted to add that, after reading the responses, I am very impressed. You have replied to many remarks with absolute maturity and open-mindness to everyone involved. Many folks would have gotten caught up in the emotion and viewed these remarks as personal attacks and would have responded quickly and emotionally. I admire you for being open to all opinions and believe you to be a great benefit to the Pontiac community.

With that said, your car is looking nice, keep the pictures coming. I am glad that you have finally been able to make your dream come true. By the way, I knew your comment was in jest as soon as I read it since it reminds me of something I do all the time. My wife can fix a whole feast and then asks me to open the can of olives. Well then, that would constitute me making the dinner. Drives her nuts.

[Rzepka_R]

Hi Guys,

I think there will always be a broad range of opinions with respect to this topic until some "laws" are designed to define things better and then there will be an even broader range of opinions.. To be perfectly honest I'm not sure how something like that could ever be designed without leaning to an extreme one way or the other.. If I look at the subject as open as possible, how would anyone determine where to "draw the line". Since there seems to be much more "interest" in the shell itself then anything else that bolts on, what would you do -- develop a percentage that has to be original? That won't work to well, it's rather common for guys to replace floors, trunks and lower quarters (or complete quarters), that's a HUGE percentage of the shell! So now you're left with actually trying to define what parts of the shell need to remain original.. I can only think of one example right now, but a car with an engine fire sits for years and years and the firewall is rusted beyond saving it. Would it really be "fair" to say a firewall can't be replaced when a floor, trunk and two quarters can? Trying to define this would be a nightmare and lead to things like people cutting out around a tag to replace a body, when in reality that isn't much different then a total re-body, but it would fit the "law".. A re-body is certainly easier, but is an original firewall, when every other piece of the shell has been replaced, really any better when it comes to thinking about the "originality" of a car?

This subject gets deep really fast and everyone will look at things a little different and a lot of that difference will come from what they have and the condition it is in.. I imagine my personal thoughts might be a little different if I had a rare combination of a car with a totally rusted out body..

Again, we can't fool anyone, the only reason someone replaces a floor, a trunk, two quarters or a whole body is in an attempt to bring something back that others think, and will give, a lot of money for. In my case I was very lucky in the early 90's to find a 1966 GTO in amazing shape.. I'm curently getting it painted and to me that means a frame off. It's got a 3" x 4" patch on the one rear quarter, another on the passengers front fender and a replacement drivers front fender (I have the original, but it had a bad corner ledge dent and somehow/someway without even looking for it someone found me a spare fender which I later discovered was stamped out one day different then my original one -- yes, there are date codes).. It's a numbers matching tri-power, four speed 3.90 gear car with a perfect original interior.. Now what is fair to me doesn't matter here, but is it really right to say a re-bodied car is worth the same as one with almost all original body parts? Done correctly no one might ever know, but is that really right? Technically that re-body or replacement of every part other then the firewall and part of the roof just made the worth of mine just a little less. One that technically "didn't make it" was just brought back to life, mine is now a tad less rare. Yes, there will still only ever be a little over 19,000 1966 tri-power GTO's, but one more now "survived" that really technically didn't.. In a way, a total re-body or replacement of floors, trunk and quarters... it's not a restoration, but a reconstruction.. This would really upset people though if they all got reconstructed titles if a certain percentage of the total car was replaced and not restored..

I highly doubt a bunch of govenment people will get together and come up with laws that define a "restored" collectable car and what defines one that was "brought back" or "reconstructed"... If and when the day would ever come when I'd sell mine, my only course to get as much money as possible out of my car would be to prove with pictures and everything else I have how original the car really is and was through-out it's life.. To think a law will ever come up that will stop cars from being "reconstructed" so my car will be one of even fewer left is just not worth thinking about, it's not going to happen.. It's still one of a little more then 19,000 tri-power cars built that year and the GTO that get's "reconstructed" is also one of a little more then 19,000 ones ever built and the more original parts that car has left on it the more it will be worth to someone..

If you are a buyer you just have to be smart and look for things.. A perfect body shell with front fenders that don't match up with dates to the rest of the car just doesn't make sense.. Haven't seen to many spotless, rustfree shells where the front fenders were rusted out that needed replaced.. Just one example, there are countless others..

As others have said, it's an interesting topic, but one that will always have people with widely scattered opinions talking about it..

Thanks,
Rich

[Pecosbill]

I bought my 64 Lemans convertible 31 years ago from the original owner. The car had been in a minor accident a couple of years before and the bodyshop replaced the front fender, bumper, valance, snout and passenger side grill and headlight bucket with those from a 64 GTO that had been hit in the rear (shame he didn't use the hood also). I even saw the goat in the junkyard and could verify the missing parts. (The hood was intact and the junkyard owner wanted $50 for it....and $225 for the complete tripower 389 under the hood, but did I grab it??? Of course not!)

After driving the car for a while I couldn't help but notice that the 326 was a real oil burner...a quart every 75 miles! One day I was passing another boneyard and I saw a 64 goat with motor intact, 389 4 barrel. Bought the motor for $125 and tore it down and had it redone...new everything inside, but surprisingly the original bore was fine. Dropped the motor in the Lemans and wow! The car had an original 3 speed floor shift with console. I later found a 4 speed Muncie, including bellhousing, shifter and driveshaft from, yep, another 64 GTO. Finally, I added a limited slip rear carrier from yet another 64 goat to complete my drivetrain.

You can see where this is going. My car has a complete driveline from various 1964 GTO's, not Bonnevilles, GP's or Catalinas. Parts of the front end are original 64 GTO and I've added an original 64 GTO hood (unfortunately there aren't any UNoriginal ones). When we finish the frame-off we are going to re-badge the car as a GTO. But according to the VIN it is a Lemans. And if I ever sell it, it will be sold as a Lemans with a lot of GTO parts.

Compare my car to a "real" 1967 GTO that has had the motor replaced with a 428 from a 1969 Catalina and a Muncie from a Chevrolet. Which car is more "authentic", mine or the 67? Which car can be legimately sold as a "GTO"? (That's obvious). Which car would bring more money? Which car should bring more money?

I think we've got a lot of things going on here. I know in my case, and I think in Andre's as well, I am making this car the way I want it. I don't plan on reselling it. I'll even tell someone if they ask me if it's a real goat or not. I really don't care. I'm having fun doing the resto and when I'm done the world will have one more nice original-looking "GTO" than it would if I just let it die as a Lemans. If I'm guilty of anything, I'm guilty of having a lot of fun redoing this car, especially with my near-anal approach to wanting everything on it to be original 64.

But if you swing over to the other side of the spectrum, there's the fellow who finds a junker goat, cuts out the pillar with the VIN tag on it, pops the trim plate off the firewall and even perhaps uses part of the original frame, the part with the VIN stamped on it. He then finds a Lemans, replaces those parts on it and finds a 400 or larger block to go in the car and sells it as a goat. Is he guilty of something? You're darn right he is...fraud. And that all stems from an intent to deceive for a profit.

So how do we combat this? Well, I guess one way would be to be very reluctant to buy a car that had had extensive work done to it, unless that work was comprehensive, professional and original. At some point in the future the difference between a "real" goat and a well done up clone might be negligible as these cars become more and more scarce and younger people who don't care as much about the differences snap them up based on crazy things like (1) their condition, (2) the size and condition of the motor, and (3) the general asthetics of the car.

[A-body]

Andre
In one of your original posts, you showed pics of the frame and suspension assembled. My 66 chevelle convert is real close to that stage now. I have all the suspension parts and frame painted, and am going to assemble them when I get back from Hawaii next week. Did you tighten all the bushing bolts, or do you have to wait until all the body panels are on, and the suspension is "set" right? Just curious how it's supposed to be done.
Gary

[Andre]

The front end was completely torqued down. The only part that was not installed were the front shocks, and the sway bar linkage. The chassis needed the weight of the motor placed into it before the pieces would line up so they could be attached.

[Andre]

More progress has been made- The body would have been painted tomorrow, but the less than warm weather here would attribute to longer drying times, and make the painting day last a lot longer than it should, so final paint won't be till next week,

Picture one shows the primed fenders. These are the repo fenders. They were assembled on the car with the repo doors, and various spoon and hammer methods were used to get a nice clean fit in all three dimensions. This is definitely a better fit than the factory acheived, and would be a dead giveaway that this car has been completely apart.

Picture 2 shows the fenders in basecoat.

Picture 3 shows the fenders after the clear has been applied. The color seems to get lighter from 2 to 3, but that is because of the flash, though you can see how much deeper the shine is after the clear coat was applied, and if you look closely you can see the camera man

[65Tiger]

Looks great Andre! After matching the color does the paint shop have a code or a mixing formula you could share. That is dead on to the Tiger Gold color I am wishing for my 65.
I can't wait to see the entire car painted.

If you want to post the code here or PM me, either would be fine.

Keep the pictures coming.

[Tempest]

Great pics Andre, and thanks for keeping us up to date. Are the insides (back side) of the fenders supposed to be black or gold?

[Tripower455]

That's coming out great! I can't believe how quickly they are getting it done!

[Andre]

I'll post the code for the paint here.

If I remember from all the cars that I have taken apart, the inside of the fenders were usually the remnants of the black factory primer which had usually gotten thin and show some light discoloration.

In this case mine have the black primer from Goodmark, along with some hints of grey primer. The fenders are painted with suffiicent coverage to make sure the sharp edges are not left bare.

[Tripower455]

Again, we can't fool anyone, the only reason someone replaces a floor, a trunk, two quarters or a whole body is in an attempt to bring something back that others think, and will give, a lot of money for.

Uhh, OK. Anyone who replaces rusted sheet metal is out to decieve future buyers? I plan on NEVER selling mine in the first place, but, do you think a future owner would prefer a trunk with a bunch of pinholes and spray on undercoating in it, or a nicely replaced floor?

In my case I was very lucky in the early 90's to find a 1966 GTO in amazing shape..

You were lucky. There simply aren't that many 40+ y.o. cars in that kind of shape anymore. I looked for over a year to find just the right basket case to revive. I only found one car even close to yours (4 spd, tripower AC car.... it needed interior and paint, but the metal was perfect..... it was in Tucson), and it was a hard top. If it were a 'vert, I would own it today.

I'm curently getting it painted and to me that means a frame off.

Wait a minute....... if the car is not in it's original paint, then you MUST be trying to up the resale value by decieving a future buyer into thinking it has the original paint. Plus, once the car is apart, it is no longer a "survivor"...... Now it is a restored car, and must be worth less.


[quote]It's got a 3" x 4" patch on the one rear quarter, another on the passengers front fender and a replacement drivers front fender (I have the original, but it had a bad corner ledge dent and somehow/someway without even looking for it someone found me a spare fender which I later discovered was stamped out one day different then my original one -- yes, there are date codes).. [quote]

Too bad about the fender..... I certainly hope that if you ever sell, you disclose this offense to the buyer, and knock some $$$ off.

It's a numbers matching tri-power, four speed 3.90 gear car with a perfect original interior..

Not any more! It doesn't have an original fender or paint!

Now what is fair to me doesn't matter here, but is it really right to say a re-bodied car is worth the same as one with almost all original body parts?

It's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, regardless of whether it has GM air in the tires or chinese quarter panels. Once you take it apart, it really is a moot point, because if the body work is done well, it can be damn near impossible to tell. In the real world, a nicely restored, non numbers GTO is worth more than ratty numbers car. If the 2 were identical in condition, then certainly, the correct numbers car would and should bring more $$$$.

You should have left your car the way it was, because now, using your logic, it is worth less because it isn't all original.

Done correctly no one might ever know, but is that really right? Technically that re-body or replacement of every part other then the firewall and part of the roof just made the worth of mine just a little less.

If this upsets you, you should've bought a basket case, paid $50-70k to have it "restored", and then you'd be on the "winning" side of the investment issue. If you are worried that other people's restored cars are bringing down the value of your investment, you are in the wrong hobby.

One that technically "didn't make it" was just brought back to life, mine is now a tad less rare.

Technically, it did make it. If it didn't make it, it wouldn't be driving around. These cars were never designed to last 40 years.

Yes, there will still only ever be a little over 19,000 1966 tri-power GTO's, but one more now "survived" that really technically didn't.. In a way, a total re-body or replacement of floors, trunk and quarters... it's not a restoration, but a reconstruction.. This would really upset people though if they all got reconstructed titles if a certain percentage of the total car was replaced and not restored..

So, what do we do? Outlaw restoration of cars deemed not worthy by you? I have about 1000 pictures of my "restification", a lot of them are on the net. Do you seriously think that I would/could try to pass my car off as an unrestored "survivor"?

I never wanted a numbers car in the first place. While I respect those that have them, and LOVE seeing nice original cars at shows I enjoy driving mine the way it is much more than I would if it were all correct.

I also love fielding the "you know that engine's not original?" comments at car shows (by guys who drove there in minvans)..... Yeah, I know, because I can beat an original one, by a long shot, on the strip on 93 octane......

[Rzepka_R]

Tripower455,

You took both the content and tone of what I wrote in the wrong way to reply in the way you did.

I did not single out anyone with any of my comments. I did not agree or disagree with what anyone was doing and certainly didn't imply or state anyone was doing anything with deceit in mind. I presented some general questions relative to the topic from a "dollar worth" perspective. No one here is talking about dumping 20, 30, 40 or 50 grand into something that isn't worth 10k on it's best day.. We all make decisions on where to spend money and many of those decisions are influenced by what others think is popular and thus valuable. In other words, you don't see too many people spending the time and money to change out a floor, trunk and quarters on a Yugo.

I posted on the interesting topic at a time when it appeared the posts finally started to turn away from personal attacks on people and/or the car they own..

Rich

[Andre]

I understood Rich's comments, and didn't feel like he was singling out anyone, but just making some general statements. I have a decent '66 Catalina Station Wagon. It is a matching numbers car, but if I restore it, I'm basically throwing good money after bad. Still, it is relatively rare, as most of these were driven into the ground or became fodder for the demolition derby. Runs like a top, and seems to have more appeal to the average person on the street. I'm not sure why that is.

[Tripower455]

Originally Posted by Rzepka_R

Tripower455,

You took both the content and tone of what I wrote in the wrong way to reply in the way you did.

I did not single out anyone with any of my comments. I did not agree or disagree with what anyone was doing and certainly didn't imply or state anyone was doing anything with deceit in mind. I presented some general questions relative to the topic from a "dollar worth" perspective. No one here is talking about dumping 20, 30, 40 or 50 grand into something that isn't worth 10k on it's best day.. We all make decisions on where to spend money and many of those decisions are influenced by what others think is popular and thus valuable. In other words, you don't see too many people spending the time and money to change out a floor, trunk and quarters on a Yugo.

I posted on the interesting topic at a time when it appeared the posts finally started to turn away from personal attacks on people and/or the car they own..

Rich

Personal attacks?

I was responding to a few of your points using your own logic. I didn't take it personally at all. Sorry if I offended you.....

Maybe I should have added a few more ............

[Andre]

Here are a couple of pictures of the body shell with doors installed getting ready to be rolled over to the paint booth. The interior paintwork has been done so it is masked off also