[screamingchief]

Going to a roller alone (from a solid flat to solid roller,or from a hydraulic flat to hydraulic roller) wont yeild a huge change in it's manners for a given cam's size,yes it will smooth it out slightly,but not 20 degrees worth...

Now going from a hydraulic flat tappet to a solid roller might be a bit different story,but much of that is attributable to just going from a hydraulic to a solid to begin with,regardless of whether its a flat or roller tappet.

But the thing is if your heads are'nt ready to take advantage of the increased opportunity to move more air,likely the gains will suffer greatly,and again you will be dissappointed with the performance.

Spend the $$$$ where it'll do the most good,in the heads!

And then just use a decent (and more economical) solid flat tappet cam to take advantage of the ability to gain some "size" without the huge "drivability" penalty.

I did put a more or less "exact number" for the head flow recommended to do this...

And it is'nt "divorced" from what's required to properly choose a cam.

I recommended both from my first post,they go hand in hand IMO.
(along with the gear and convertor too)

The engines "ultimate" power potential is much more closely related to the headflow it has,as opposed to the cam's chosen size.

Doing any of this,without doing the rest of this will certainly hurt the overall results,and again will likely end in dissappointment to some extent.

I do wish some more folks would chime in here and share their thoughts,I Know that my suggestions are'nt way out there or anything,maybe some other viewpoints would ease your concerns some.

And I also dont think a 300 HP shot would be needed to get to the 500 RWHP mark with an engine like I've discussed,more like 150-175 (maybe 200...) HP shot should do the trick to get there IMO.

Remember your not going to see every HP added at the rear wheels...

[455Dave]

I ran a solid flat tappet cam similar to the on SC recommended in my old stock 462 with a 110 LSA. I used out of the box E heads and Dougs headers to push my 4000lb car down the track at 12.20s and 113s with no power adder and a slipping clutch shifting a 5200 rpm. The car had around 12.5 inches of vacuum at a 900 rpm idle (Performer RPM intake) and I never had any problems with the brakes. The engine was dynoed at 418 rwhp which is pretty close to the numbers it ran.

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

thanks for the help guys and keep commenting please.

[Bad Karma]

I am no experty here but I reccomend a no nonsense throw money at it approach.
Buy Eheads have them ported by butler or KRE for 350 cfm add a roller cam with silly lifts to take advantage of the CFM's. The hydr roller tames high lifts for the street somewhat. Some guys run very high lifts and have decent Idle for traffic and vaccuum. If you want street manners AND Power then the aluminum heads with a roller cam will be closest to what you are looking for. A bonus is the thing wont give away its narley power with a huge loping idle. Your chevy friend will pay

[KEN CROCIE]

S--chief: my comment was based on his statement of wanting to use the #16 heads.Depending on the loss in his particular drivetrain, it will take 600-650 FW hp to get 500 @ the wheels. I think my comment came off as sarcastic, but I had good intentions

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

as of now my car is in the body shop its getting rust bubbles and im taking care of that (trunk/passenger floor, 1/4's, and a few other minor things). between the body shop and the speed shop i cant afford the alum heads (the #16's will work just as good ive been told) and i have more money in them then what theyre worth so im gonna have to bite the bullet and use em. from what you guys say about this cam and its ability to be streetable im gonna have to find out if the springs can handle the lift and if so ill go with it. but i have a few questions if you guys dont mind commenting.

1. i want to get a new set of rods/pistons as well if i cant get mid/low 12's with the motor im considering using a small shot of spray (100-150 tops) so i need it to be able to handle the spray. what should i use here ? i was thinking h or i beams and ross.

2. i heared solid cams require more "attetion" you have to go back and adjust the rocker arm nuts every once in a while (every oil change i heared) is this true ? and will it matter if i have roller rockers ? i thought the poly lock wont back out so they woudlnt need readjusting.

if this cam behaves like you guys suggest and i can get my heads to flow good with a good converter and rear end if it dont wake this thing up im gonna sell it and get a GMC typhoon or a syclone.

[screamingchief]

Most of the common aftermarket forged rods (scat,eagle,crower) should do just fine,look for the lighter variety (H-beams),but the cat I beams may be an affordable option above a stock rod if budget is a major concern.

On pistons,the ross' would be nice and have you covered just fine as well,may also consider dude's BRC's or Ace's new pistons as those are both very nice,affordable,and it helps the pontiac vendors to support them.

A decent forged rod/piston combo should handle the nitrous use you describe no problem.

On the "adjustment myth",it is just that,a myth,a modern solid cams will require very infrequent adjustments,usually closer to once a year,and often that is just for piece of mind,as SOP,not because it is needed.

And if you include using a stud girdle,then the adjustments schedule holds even longer,as they help the adjusters "hold" their settings better.

Just be sure you address the usual flat tappet issues like using a good oil and the break-in stuff like removing the inners for break-in and using some GM EOS.

And this for Ken C.,I really was'nt intending to disagree or anything,I just felt it would'nt take that big a shot to do the job,just what I mentioned,anything else was directed more towards the general context of the posts here,so no problem,did'nt take anything too hard on my part.

[Bad Karma]

One question do your heads (the 16's) have port work done to increase flow?
I know there is talk about anything over about .450 lift is wasted on non ported D ports. To take advantage of high lifts I have been told there is a need for "mods" on most poncho heads. You said you have money in them so I assume that includes increasing the flow.

[Bad Karma]

To add to screaming chief EOS reccomendation (if you forgo the roller cam) I would also run some type of racing oil that has a high level of zinc. Modern oil is not to great for our old cams. They require zinc to keep the lobes good. My next oil change is going to be mobil 1 racing oil. Just make sure it has zinc. I have read GM says only to add EOS at cam break in and not to use on a regular basis. Although the guys on here, some of them do use it on a regular basis, maybe they can answer that more accurately than me. GM did say it though It was reported in this months car craft. Many complaints about mushed cams to crane. Its almost a serious issue and will be more so as I bet there will be even less zinc in oil as time goes by.

[69Goat1]

Originally Posted by judge_jury_executioner_69

i have a 428 (i assume its stock) im considering going with a roller cam setup. i have a set of big vlave 16's that i got bare and i put all new everythign in them with a "minor" port job. they cleaned up the intake and exhaust sides from what i can tell i assume they didnt touch the bowls. i have no clue how much lift the springs can handle until i find the reciept on the heads and ill look up the springs. i also have a set of 1.6 roller rockers,edelbrock rpm intake,headers,and x pype. i have 3 goals with this car. 1 i want it to have in the ballpark of 500 hp at the wheels. 2 i want it to be consistant low 12 sec 1/4 mile car. 3 i want this car to be streetable enough to drive around town. car has auto tranny and stock rear end. im curious as to how big of a cam i should go w/o overkill and how much flow i need out of these heads to get the job done. id appreciate any suggestions as to what to get me there. id like to get a set of 3.73's to help out some and anything to help me get traction. i know ive asked this question before but i would like to hear suggestions. its tax time so i can get more done to it. also i have a freind that is die hard chevy guy that likes to bad mouth pontiac so i gotta shut him up. i want to make him look stupid for thinking he can beat my 428. can anyone help me out with suggestions on what works ? if not a roller cam then what ? i have a comp cams XE 268 H that i was trying to sell but the guy backed out of (i told the shop that i wanted street manners more then speed at the time because it was my daily driver but ive changed my mind since then and got a diffrent vehicle.) i thought about talking to pontiac dude with a supercharger but CR woudl be off the charts. i need this to work on pump gas. thatll throw a wrench in the plans.

JJE69 - I have almost the same combo you have in my TA's engine (used to be in my GTO) and I used the XE284H cam in it. TII intake, Holley 850 DP, 1.6 roller rockers, 1 6 heads unported, and T-400 with 2800 stall and 3.73 12 bolt (when the engine was in the GTO) and it would turn low 12's in the 1/4 and 7.6's in the 1/8th. I pulled the engine and put it in my 78 TA when I built the new engine for my GTO and in the TA with stock stall convertor and 3.23 gears and a regular Performer (now Holley SD) intake and it pulls 12.6 1/4 mile times. I plan on changing the stall because I believe this is where the biggest part of my problem is right now and will probably put it back into low 12 territory.

I have the Comp 290B cam in my GTO now with E-heads and it runs very, very, low 11's at 123 mph - I believe this cam to be as streetable as the XE cam...

[Ron H]

Why not race port your 6x-4 or the #16 heads and add that first solid that Screaming chief suggested? Port match an RPM intake and you will easily run consistent low 12's IMO. Gears, tire size, heades/exhaust and converter make a big difference in how you run also as screaming chief noted. So does weight transfer etc. But 12's isn't too difficult with a mainly stock build. It's after that it starts getting tougher. I couldn't afford the Aluminum heads and some other things but went through my car, 462, cat rods, rpm intake, Edelbrock 850 AVS carb, mild port 6x4's, Ultradyne 041 style cam, 1.5 roller rockers, TCI 11" converter(flashed to 2400 rpm), 3.89 gears, 28" drag radials, aluminum rims, slapper bars, 3 way summit race shocks, 3700 lbs race weight and run 12.25's corrected.
This year I am race porting the 6x-4's, port matching the rpm intake, redegreeing the cam and/or changing to a Ultradyne solid, adding the Jim Hand continental, slide a links, fuel cell, electric pump, -8 fuel lines, battery in trunk, Cliff Ruggles Quadra Jet and Skinny fronts. This should net me 12.20's at this elevation, 11.60 corrected?
I could have saved a couple of these steps but worked within my budget.

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

i appreciate the info 69Goat1 were you happy with the stall? that gives me even more confidence in this cam. i will be using this cam or somethign very simmilar.screamingcheif what did you mean in post when you said "Just be sure you address the usual flat tappet issues like using a good oil and the break-in stuff like removing the inners for break-in and using some GM EOS?" Ron H i am going to get rid of my 6X4's and use the #16's. someone asked about the flow on the #16's i got the heads bare and had everything brand new put in them and a "minor" port job. looks like they cleaned up the intake/exhaust sides with the valves in them i cant see but i assume they didnt touch the bowls. my only concern now is the CR might be too high for pump gas. i really appreciate everyones imput on this. now all i need is the money to put this togeather.

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

Originally Posted by 69Goat1

JJE69 - I have almost the same combo you have in my TA's engine (used to be in my GTO) and I used the XE284H cam in it. TII intake, Holley 850 DP, 1.6 roller rockers, 1 6 heads unported, and T-400 with 2800 stall and 3.73 12 bolt (when the engine was in the GTO) and it would turn low 12's in the 1/4 and 7.6's in the 1/8th. I pulled the engine and put it in my 78 TA when I built the new engine for my GTO and in the TA with stock stall convertor and 3.23 gears and a regular Performer (now Holley SD) intake and it pulls 12.6 1/4 mile times. I plan on changing the stall because I believe this is where the biggest part of my problem is right now and will probably put it back into low 12 territory.

I have the Comp 290B cam in my GTO now with E-heads and it runs very, very, low 11's at 123 mph - I believe this cam to be as streetable as the XE cam...

what size engine is it ? how fast can you run before you have to have a roll cage?

[screamingchief]

Rollbar for anything quicker than 11.50 (11.49 and down).

About the flat tappet advice,it's just like you'll find on any of that here,use an oil with a decent amount of zinc,or an additive with it,caution during break-in too is advised,as that is a critical time for establishing proper wear patterns,most remove the inner springs to reduce some tension on the lobes for break-in,or use of special lower ratio rockers can be used.

And the EOS during break-in provides extra hi-pressure protection for that period.

Just SOP for the most part,plenty about all that here on the boards,do a search if your really unsure what exactly to do,or maybe start another thread when the time comes.

I also recommend using crower solid lifters exclusively,for reasons many,and these can be ordered with the "coolface" option too,a good idea as well if any extended "street" use is to be seen.

And on the pump gas issue,with a cam like those mentioned I doubt seriously you'll have any real issues as long as you dont go too much over 10.0:1 IMO,these cams have a fairly late intake closing,therefore they tend to be relatively forgiving in that department.

You can check your dynamic compression ratio and get an idea what to expect with any of the several online calculators,like the one at KB pistons:
http://kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp

Only problem with this is I have no idea what the .050" numbers are for the comp cams as they all use .020" numbers on their cams,and the calculator needs the .050" numbers to compute it's figures.

If anybody here had that info it may help others to post it here,as that can help in determining such things.

My similar cam (a crower custom solid) uses .050" numbers though,and it shows a significant impact on the DCR numbers with the "late" intake closing.

HTH.

[OINK 1]

If you know how to port them , you can get these type of #'s.
These heads take standard d-port intake gaskets, they're not opened up to ram Air 4 size.

Pontiac Gregg

[69Goat1]

Originally Posted by judge_jury_executioner_69

what size engine is it ? how fast can you run before you have to have a roll cage?

428 + .040

you can run to 11.50 no cage. I have no cage now but I am working on it...slowly...

[69Goat1]

I would also use at least a 2800 stall (I had a TCI Breakaway) in the XE 284 cam engine and around 3200-3500 in the 290B cammed engine... You can use the stock stall with the 284 and run respectable but your 60 ft will suffer...

[Thumpin455_GTO]

FWIW got 12.1-11.7 from a 455 with ported 670s, 4.11 gears (too deep IMO, ran better with 3.42) L88 converter, 3400lb race weight, and a hydraulic or solid cam. Ran both in it, ran the same times. The solid was 10 degrees bigger, that lead me to the conclusion the gears were too deep.

Solid specs were .510/.531 lift, I 14/46 E 58/10 valve timing, 110 LSA, 106 CL, .050 Dur 240/248. Comp # 51-000-5

With this cam and a UD 288-296 hyd, it had 14" vac, and great street manners. Ran it on race gas because of the compression, but it was easily driveable and idled around 750-800rpm. It could have used more cam IMO.

Low 12s dont have to be really radical, but without port work you will have a tougher time.
I agree with 69Goat, go with a 2800stall at least, a 428 with ported 16s and the 290B should run well into the 11s in a 3500lb car, if you can get it to hook. If you cant get it there with 3.73 gears, you did something wrong somewhere..

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

i cant tell you guys how much i appreciate the help. i was so unsure abotu what cam to go with but ive made up my mind. i like the sound of 11's. its funny that this has never been to the track. now im gonna go from 13/14's ? to 11's. i feel like a kid at x mas. im happier then a pig in sh*t. oint 1 did you port those yourself or did you have those done ? im curious about how much more im gonna have to drop to get my heads to flow that well.

[69Goat1]

JJE69 - just make sure you have everything to support this kind of HP. ie Fuel system is a biggie, cooling, good tranny, convertor, strong differential, etc... Building the engine is the easy part - getting your car to be able to use the power is the hard part...