[Bill Bolin]

I am in the process of changing my single 6-71 blower setup to a double blower setup w/ a Super Chiller intercooler. I will be bolting a 8-71 blower on top of the 6-71 blower with the Chiller under the 6-71. I will be mocking up the setup this week since the second blower and intercooler just arrived. I have already had the adapter plate made to mount the 8-71 on top of the 6-71.


I have a few questions for anyone who can answer them.

Question 1) How do I figure out the size of the tank for the intercooler? Teague Marine (who owns Super Chiller) and Vortech were no use in this area. Teague marine said I needed a pump capable of 6-8GPM while Vortech recommended a Jabsco pump that is rated at 20GPM but neither could recommend a tank size. My plan was to use two small aluminum radiators mounted behind my headlight area, this way it still allows air to come through the grilles and cool the engine radiator. I wanted to run the two radiators in series with a tank located somewhere in the front end area.

Question 2) Would I be correct in assuming that the stress on the crank snout would be reduced with the double belt setup? If the tension of the belt causes stress between the crank and the lower blower pulley, wouldn't the tension between the second lower blower pulley and the upper blower pulley offset this stress?

This will be a street driven car for the most part. I am not shooting for max performance with the double blower setup, just driveability. When I take it to the track, I will remove the 6-71 blower and make passes with a single 8-71 blower setup. It will be much easier to tune with the single blower. I'm just trying to be different from the rest of the crowd. Thanks for any info. Bill

[LouisianaGuy]

Why not just take a turbo and blow into the blower...wouldnt it give the same effect and maby make a lil more power and be MORE reliable, im pretty sure no one else has one like that, with the exception of the military on their Hemmitt trucks :P
Cool Idea you are trying tho.,
Mike

[gobrdgo]

I love the look of two at a 45 degree angle. I have no clue how to add technically to this thread.

[Bill Bolin]

Originally Posted by LouisianaGuy

Why not just take a turbo and blow into the blower...wouldnt it give the same effect and maby make a lil more power and be MORE reliable, im pretty sure no one else has one like that, with the exception of the military on their Hemmitt trucks :P
Cool Idea you are trying tho.,
Mike

I'm going more for the visual effect than the performance effect. I've never seen another "stacked" blower setup before. The one pictured is from Australia. I've seen side-by-side double blower setups but with my car set up the way it is, I wouldn't be able to see out of the windshield with a side-by-side setup. I won't be affecting my view by stacking them but will get the result I'm looking for by stacking them. Again, I don't have the $$$$$$ it takes to be the fastest guy or the $$$$$$ to be best in show. I just like standing out from the crowd. Unless Gary brings his car over here from Australia, I don't expect to see another setup like mine at the same event I'll be at.

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"Question 1) How do I figure out the size of the tank for the intercooler? Teague Marine (who owns Super Chiller) and Vortech were no use in this area. Teague marine said I needed a pump capable of 6-8GPM while Vortech recommended a Jabsco pump that is rated at 20GPM but neither could recommend a tank size."

If you were drag racing it would be easier on the tank as you would be adding ice to the tank to lower the water temp for the run. Typically the rule of thumb was to have enough water in the tank to completely fill the vehicle's
inter-cooler system plus 5 gallons of water. You would then typically add bags of ice (3) prior to the run. After the run at the end of the quarter mile you would want all three bags of ice melted.

In your case, the vehicle being a street type vehicle that does not apply. Your vehicle is much more like a Ford
Lightning truck where the "Tank" is actually a very small
"degas bottle". The cooling comes from the Heat Exchangers effectiveness and any thermal mass you have in the system.

Quote:

"My plan was to use two small aluminum radiators mounted behind my headlight area, this way it still allows air to come through the grilles and cool the engine radiator."

To cool properly the type of engine you are describing a pair of small heat exchangers mentioned above ARE NOT going to cut it. I built a prototype 6.8L Vortech supercharged F-350 one time using two of the Vortech heat exchangers and it was ok for a little cooling of the charge air under boost but in your case (with the staged blowers) you are going to be heating the charger to the second blower continously.

If you are doing this for "looks" I would use the larger 8-71 and blow through a dummy 6-71 case that had the pulleu acting like an idler but no rotors inside.

Quote:

"I wanted to run the two radiators in series with a tank located somewhere in the front end area."

Parallel would be better because you need volume cooling not staged cooling.

Question 2) Would I be correct in assuming that the stress on the crank snout would be reduced with the double belt setup?

Nope, stress would go up.

If the tension of the belt causes stress between the crank and the lower blower pulley, wouldn't the tension between the second lower blower pulley and the upper blower pulley offset this stress?

Nope.

This will be a street driven car for the most part. I am not shooting for max performance with the double blower setup, just driveability. When I take it to the track, I will remove the 6-71 blower and make passes with a single 8-71 blower setup. It will be much easier to tune with the single blower. I'm just trying to be different from the rest of the crowd. Thanks for any info. Bill

Good luck.

Tom V.

[Brian Baker]

Bill, email me if you'd like info on a crank snout support.

[tininjun67]

pulling the blower off seems like a lot of work in order to go to the track. It sounds like a tuning nightmare to boot. I think an 8-71 with an efi bug catcher would be pretty awesome with the chiller under if you want some height. Then you'd have looks and driveability.

One blower pulling up on the snout of another blower which is pulling up on the snout of the crank = more stress.

[Brian Baker]

And there's the issue of the discharge from the top blower emptying into the bottom blower. The inlet of the bottom blower will always be under boost, and as such will always see "super-heated" air. Won't be very efficient either, as some of this air will be forced toward the center of the rotors (which are coming up at the air)...a spacer that would divert the air towards the outside of the rotors would work better.

With no fuel nozzles between the two blowers to help keep the bottom blower cool, the bottom blower wil prematurely wear.

The top blower will throw the majority of this heated air toward the front of the bottom blower, and the bottom blower will throw the majority of its air to the front of the intake manifold. Definately going to need port nozzles to be able to get any kind of a handle on the tune-up.

In addition to the hat injector, if I were you I'd plumb additional nozzles between the two blowers to help keep the bottom one cool.

So now you've got the hat, some nozzles between the blowers (I'd run at least 4), and 8 port nozzles. What a tuning nightmare.

I'm with Tom, I'd make one of those cases a "dummy"...this way you have the look without the tuning headaches, because there WILL be tuning headaches.

I've seen in person two different cars running that were double boosted...both of them built by Rick Dobbertin. Sometime in 1983 or 1984, I saw Rick's early Nova at a show at the Howard County Fairgrounds. Most of us know it had a BBC with a single roots blower being fed by twin turbo's and a pair of Holley Dominators. It took an enormous amount of effort just to get this thing running. As I recall, when Rick was leaving the show (the car was driven onto the ground, presumably from a trailer parked outside somewhere), it too so long to get it started that they about killed the battery in it and needed a jump start. Once running, it sounded bad a'$$, but he never did anything more than a slow crawl out of the fairgrounds.

Later in 1986 or 1987, I saw his Pontiac J-2000 at Capitol Raceway. Most know this was powered by an aluminum SBC with twin roots blowers (the case that was really one with the 4 rotors laid over against each other at an angle), twin turbo's, and fed by a single Dominator. This car ran like hammered dog $'hit. He lined up against a black '63 split window 'Vette (the one with the monster roots blown BBC that I think was built by Saboury and later sold to someone in Florida, where the car ended up on an episode of Miami Vice). The 'Vette tore out through the first 100' like a raped ape...the J-2000 billowed so much black smoke from the exhaust that it resembled a Kenworth, and it hardly moved.

Having a dual purpose machine can be cool...you just have to ask yourself if it is worth all of the headaches that you will surely have, Bill.

[Region Warrior]

Keeping the intake charge cool would be a battle. Those babies make alot of heat.
The guys running Vortec's fill thier water tank with 3 to 5 10lb bags of ice before every run. The water is HOT by the time they pit.

If looks are the goal, how about a Hilbourn injector with velocity stacks.
I think that would look

[Half-Inch Stud]

Hmmmm, Location: Shady Side, Md

Side/by/side with the outlets facing each other (then going into plenum) soounds neat.

[Gas455]

[/QUOTE]I just like standing out from the crowd. Unless Gary brings his car over here from Australia, I don't expect to see another setup like mine at the same event I'll be at.[/QUOTE]


Gary has since taken the second blower off now and is running a single blower with Injection setup.

[Gas455]

Originally Posted by Pontiac462

I just like standing out from the crowd. Unless Gary brings his car over here from Australia, I don't expect to see another setup like mine at the same event I'll be at.

Gary has since taken the second blower off and is now running a single blower with injection hat.

[SupergasDil]

Dang Bill, Like you need more attention???? Your car is already waaaaaaay Coooooool.

I'm with Tom. If you're not after performance I would remove the rotors from the 671.
No one will know they are not in there but you.

PS. I am not able to use your pump mount. Let me know if you would like me to send it back. Thanks, Dil

[speedshopmike]

i have pretty extensive water to air intercooling experience per my gmc syclone.
bottom line is this - you want the biggest damn tank you can fit if it's for street use.

i'm runing a 30 gallon tank, 2 very large exchangers directly in front, both with double fans, and 2 motorcycle radiators in the back, also with fans.
the pump is a big ass RV/marine unit; i've used both teh big brands; both have failed repeatedly and needed rebuilding.
ford motorsport is selling the lightning pumps now for cheap money; use at least 2 of those in a push/pull config is space is tight.
these are very reliable water pumps, which is a big plus if you're tuned near the edge.

for race use, as above, you just need enough tank to hold ice/water as will mostly melt during burnout/staging/full pass time intervals.

if you will be doing a lotta street/strip, plumb in bypass valves so you can remove teh heat exchangers from teh flow path while using ice water; they'll just melt it faster in most conditions.

hey brian, i remember rick dobb's cars well - have you seen him in the last like 10 years?

[Bill Bolin]

Originally Posted by SupergasDil

Dang Bill, Like you need more attention???? Your car is already waaaaaaay Coooooool.

I'm with Tom. If you're not after performance I would remove the rotors from the 671.
No one will know they are not in there but you.

PS. I am not able to use your pump mount. Let me know if you would like me to send it back. Thanks, Dil

No one will know except me.......and everyone who reads this post! LOL

I remember going to Carlisle Pa. swap meet in 1982 and seeing an old Ford Bronco with a 392 hemi in it with a side-by-side blower setup for sale. The truck needed paint but the price was $3700. I wasn't a Ford fan, a truck fan or a Hemi fan.........but that was the day I became a BLOWER fan. That setup left an impression on me and I decided that day that I would own a car with a blower on it.....maybe even two blowers. I was only 17 at the time but I was bitten by the bug.

Fast forward 24 years and now I wouldn't mind being the guy who has a car that makes some kid get the bug. I know most teens are into Hondas with fartpipes but maybe one or two would see the setup I am trying to do and dream big.......just like I did in '82. I have to at least try it. If I can't make it work, it won't be for lack of effort.

Who knew an old Ford Bronco that doesn't look like much (now that I'm older and look back on it) would have lead to this, but it did. Who can remember THE car/truck that got you into high performance cars? Most people had a father/uncle/friend who got them into it. I never attended a drag race as a kid nor had a family member with a high performance car. In High School my friends had an assortment of cars but nothing special. I went to Carlisle with a friend who needed parts for his Chevelle. That is when I saw the Bronco. Six months later I was the proud owner of a 68 GTO as my first car. Now I have finally gotten around to trying to duplicate what got me into this. We'll see how it turns out.

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"i have pretty extensive water to air intercooling experience per my gmc syclone. bottom line is this - you want the biggest damn tank you can fit if it's for street use."

A big thermal mass is a good thing as it will take a lot of 1/8 mile blasts on the street before it will really heat up the water in the system. It wil;l also take a lot more ice to chill everything down though too.

Quote:

"i'm runing a 30 gallon tank, 2 very large exchangers directly in front, both with double fans, and 2 motorcycle radiators in the back, also with fans."

Sounds like you have the heat exchanger deal covered! LOL!

Quote:

"the pump is a big ass RV/marine unit; i've used both teh big brands; both have failed repeatedly and needed rebuilding.
ford motorsport is selling the lightning pumps now for cheap money;"

The Bosch pumps (sold as "Lightning" pumps do not move very much water. I have tested several of them in my job as Ford Research's Turbo and Supercharger Senior Engineer. The pump will move about 6 gallons per minute when pushing through a complete intercooler system. So with two you will have 12 gal/ min of flow.
The "Big A$$ RV Pump" is probably the Jabesco Water Puppy which can move about 20 gallons per minute and built like a locomotive.

Quote:

"use at least 2 of those in a push/pull config is space is tight.
these are very reliable water pumps, which is a big plus if you're tuned near the edge."

Agree that the Bosch pump is an OEM pump designed to run 120K
in a Lightning but infortunately a low flow pump.

Quote:

"for race use, as above, you just need enough tank to hold ice/water as will mostly melt during burnout/staging/full pass time intervals."

Agree.

Quote:

"if you will be doing a lotta street/strip, plumb in bypass valves so you can remove teh heat exchangers from teh flow path while using ice water; they'll just melt it faster in most conditions."

If your racing ambient temp was say 80 degrees, the air heat exchangers would be trying to add 80 degree heat to the system even before the ice water ever got to the engine. Again agree!
Same deal goes in removing heat. Best water out temp at 80 degree ambient will be around 95 degrees to the intercooler as the exchangers are not 100 percent efficient. ICE REALLY HELPS though!

Tom V.

ps I have seen two TWIN BLOWER deals I really liked, (both had twin engines underneath the blowers:

Eddie Hills twin dragster deal and the Freight Train rail.

[Steve Barcak]

I guess i am the only one here who may remember that this has already been done. And it has already been done with a Pontiac engine too!
Customizer Carl Casper built it around 1964. It won many awards. It was a Car Craft cover car and featured as well. I am going by memory and I cannot recall the cars name. if you look for 1964-5 Car Crafts you should be able to find it easily. It had Pontiac V-8 with twin blowers mounted at 45 degree angles. It looked good.
Something also you may want to consider before you invest into a stacked blower deal. If you are trying to impress someone with a set up like that, you will only impress people who know nothing about engines, performance, supercharging, etc. The ones in the know or with even an inkling of knowledge will think it looks stupid because they all know it doesn;t work. They know it will slow the car down. They will know it is a step backwards in performance. I am not trying to insult, please do not take it the wrong way.
Those you may impress are people who know nothing about cars. Is that what you want? It will be a reflection on you. Some food for thought.
As for impressions. If you are a real blower fan and want to 'plant seeds',
put the thought, time and money inot making your already cool car go faster. my .02 for what it is worth.
I know of the strain a Pontiac crank snout takes with one blower, I cringe with the thought of that snout having to pull 2 blowers. There are so many ways to go faster and make your car run better. good luck with whatever you do.
Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org

[Bill Bolin]

Steve, I sent you two emails last week and never got a reply. Anyway, I realize the fact that it will hurt performance, not help it. This is something I wanted to try to do for only a little while. I don't plan on leaving it like that. I know that I can go faster with a single blower, and I will later this year but I wanted to do the double setup for a few shows and some pics. I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel just trying to have a little fun for a short period of time. Obviously the double blower setup wouldn't impress anyone who was looking at it as a performance enhancement but it would still turn heads at some of the cruising events I attend.......maybe even draw people away from all those Chevys and Fords to take a look at a Pontiac. Thanks for your input.

[Bill Bolin]

Just found this pic from a quick Google search.

[Gas455]

Here is another Aussie.... Rod Hadfield...who is living in the USA now.
He owns the 55 Chev with the 3000HP supercharged 27-litre V12 Merlin engine that was street registered in Australia.

This is another one of his cars that he took to the states.