[sprechs69firebird]

Hey guys, new to the site, actually it's the first post and I'm looking at doing the rebuild on what I think is a 350 in my '69 bird. I didn't get the chance to get the numbers off it before it went in for body. The only thing I know is that it's a "YE" code. Which depending on the year could be anything from a 350 to a 455. Regardless of what it is I plan on rebuilding it. I found a place that seems to have a pretty decent price on a rebuild kit at www.rpmmachine.com. Has anyone ever dealt with these guys? It appears that their kit will save about $300 to $400 vs anything else I've found. I'm really looking to do this one on a budget so any advice/feed back you have or that is otherwise noteworthy is much appreciated!

[Jack Gifford]

Welcome! I think you'll like it here!
Most members like to throw in their two cents worth, so here's mine:
If you don't have the experience and equipment to actually do the rebuild yourself, then I'd say your first priority is to find a shop that can be trusted to do it, preferably one that has some track record of building these old dinosaurs (Pontiac V8's). I wouldn't do any shopping for kits or parts until I settled on a shop and discussed it with them.

[Mr. P-Body]

To add to what Jack said, "kits" are seldom what they're cracked up to be. Most do not offer a really good combination for power and efficiency. Most kit shoppers are basing things on price, not quality, so kit suppliers step up and sell the cheapest stuff known to man, under the banner of "convenience".

Compiling a list of what's needed to bring your engine back up to snuff, won't cost you much more (if any) than a "kit". In Sealed Power's case, kit prices are merely a sum of the individual prices of their components. Sealed Power is among the best quality of replacement parts available anywhere.

Jim

[OINK 1]

Please check my web site for great kit prices! Quality pistons even in cast style.

http://www.pontiacengines.net

Click on Engine Kits.

Thanks,
Pontiac Gregg

[Ron H]

I had rpm machine do my machine work and assemble my long block. They have some experience with Pontiac's and the main guy runs oldsmobiles mainly. They do good work.
The kit you are looking at is a completely stock type kit.What are your plans/goals for the engine?

[sprechs69firebird]

Thanks for the info guys. I don't plan on going overboard with this thing. Maybe a little more power than stock. At this point I'm looking at the Holley Commander tbi set up and maybe a little juice. If the motor only pushes 300 to 350 I'll be happy. At some point I'll probably do up a motor, but I really don't feel like plunking down $7 to $10k on something.

[Ron H]

Have you figured out what size of engine you have? You are going to spend alot on fuel injection and maybe nitrous but don't want to build the bottom end? Barely any mods will get you 350 hp if it is a 400 to 455. This forum is full of recipe's. Really you need to learn about the engine and see what is in it before you determine if you even need a freshen up kit. Are you going to tear down the engine yourself?

[sprechs69firebird]

Unfortunately it's a YE code 350 with #47 heads. All the research I have done leads me to believe this is the bottom of the food chain. I guess I need to figure out how many hp I need. I'd like to go to 400, but I guess 350 is sufficient? The motor (whatever it is) will be completely rebuilt though decent parts for the 350 are few and far between. As far as the recipes, two words... information overload! I might have a line on a '59 389 for a couple hundred and a 400 core for $350. I can also buy a running (though it's unknown how good) 455 for $650. Based on the prices I'm seeing $650 might be good for a running 455.

[Will]

"... decent parts for the 350 are few and far between."

I beg to differ. The ONLY parts that are different between a 350 and a 400 are the pistons and rings. Absolutely everything else inside the engine is exactly the same and interchangeable.

It should not be hard at all to produce a 300-325 horse 350 with the heads, block, crank, and rods you have now.

Get the heads cleaned up and a good valve job put on them. See if you can get the head shop to put a back cut on the valves to remove the forging ridge and see if they will run a throat cutter into the bowls to open them up slightly above the top blend cut for the seats. Replace the guides if needed. Have the tops of the guides cut for viton oil seals. Chuck the metal spring "hats" in the trash. Install Crower 68404-16 valvesprings. Those springs will work fine at the stock installed height with stock retainers & locks and can easily handle any cam you're likely to put in this engine.

Have the pressed studs in the heads pulled and install 7/16" screw-in studs available from ARP.

Your stock rockers and pushrods will be fine if no signs of wear on them. If worn, toss and replace. Stock replacement pushrods will be fine, but I'd upgrade the rockers if your budget will allow. If not, stock replacement rockers with either poly locks (best bet) or big block Chevy crimp nuts will be fine.

Get the stock rods magnafluxed and checked for size on both the big and small ends. If they pass muster (not cracked or grossly out of round on the big end, good and round on the small end), have new ARP bolts installed in them and have them resized on the big end.

Have the crank magnafluxed and turned to whatever undersize it needs to be turned to. Don't worry about whatever that size turns out to be. Even .040" under on the mains is no big deal for the level of buildup you're doing. Buy bearings to match.

Buy stock replacement type Sealed Power cast pistons & rings for whatever overbore size you need to go to, up to .060" over.

Have the rotating assembly balanced.

Have the block decked so that piston-deck height is zero.

Install a Melling M54 DS oil pump & screen kit.

Install a cam with an intake duration within a few degrees of 210 @ .050" and a lobe separation angle between 110-112. I'd prefer the 110 LSA, making the Comp Cams XE256 a good bet.

Unless you really want to be different and "trick" I'd skip the whole TBI idea. There's no real advantages to that system and it just adds a level of cost and complexity that you will never see returned in performance. A custom built Q-jet can be had for $300 or less and will run every bit as good. You might sacrifice 1-2 MPG overall compared to a perfectly dialed in TBI, and unless it's a system that allows you to interface with a laptop and see what the A/F ratios are doing under every condition it'll never be "perfectly dialed in." Given the cost differential you'll have to drive a lot of miles to justify the extra cost of the TBI.

The money you save on the TBI could go to finding a 400 block to work with instead.

If you do give up the TBI, run a factory 4-bbl intake or an Edelbrock Performer topped with the abovementioned custom Q-jet.

Get some 1-5/8" 4-tube headers and plumb them into a 2.5" mandrel bent exhaust system, preferably with an X-crossover but with at least an H-crossover. A good pair of mufflers rounds out the system.

With distributor tuning and maybe a little carb tweaking (a custom Q-jet shouldn't need any real tuning), you'll have a very strong 350 at a cost close to $2000 for everything except the exhaust system.

If you have an auto trans, buy a Hughes GM25 converter. If you have anything numerically smaller than 3.23 rear gears, get some better gears in the rear.

Proceed to stomp Ford and ricer butt!

[INJUNTOM]

welcome aboard.

Will is right - not much difference between the 350 and 400, which means the cost is about the same to rebuild.

the power is way different, and the extra cost of a 400 core will be worth it for the difference in power.

[sprechs69firebird]

Wow Will, that's a lot of info. As far as the TBI is concerned I prefer it for the HOT Las Vegas driveability factor including the addition of an auto remote start to get that a/c cooling before I have to get into the black beast. $2000 for a rebuild on the 350 sounds good, though I have seen at least one of the folks on here that builds pontiac motors quoting +- $2400 for a 400 with approximately 340 hp. I don't have knowledge either way about how reliable this source is. No offense should they read this post. Obviously the other issue is the cost of shipping to Las Vegas.

As far as the headwork you talk about I'm assuming the machine shop would know what I'd be asking for even though I didn't.

Anyone have any input on what a good price on a rebuildable 400 core would be? I know in another thread I talk about a 455, but I'm curious.

I have to wonder if I'm overanalyzing this whole thing and making it more difficult than it has to be.

[Ron H]

You could build a mild CR basically stock 400/455 and have the same , if not more power, than a high performance 350 for less money that will run cooler and be cheaper on gas.

[Ron H]

You should buy Black Cat's car he is selling. 2500, he has tons of stuff you could use at a great price. Including the engine.

[Ogre]

Originally Posted by Will

... Chuck the metal spring "hats" in the trash. Install Crower 68404-16 valvesprings. ...

Proceed to stomp Ford and ricer butt!

Will, say it ain't so .

I enjoy reading your posts and I really appreciate your advice to me, BUT ... my '72 Pontiac Service Manual says:

External shields are used on both intake and exhaust valve springs to reduce the amount of oil splashed against the valve stems. (The WK [MY NOTE: 400 4bbl, 4 speed] engine does not incorporate shields - See Fig 6-1.)

So have we learned after 34 years that the shields are not really needed, or maybe they never were? What is the discrepancy here? The only reason I ask is because that was the main reason I pulled my heads (it was a good idea anyway) -- to replace a broken valve spring shield.

Thanks for your answer (or anybody else for that matter).

Ogre
BTW, I agree with your last line in the quote !

[Will]

Ogre - thanks for the kind words. Note that I also recommended machining the guides for viton positive seals. With viton seals in place, the metal spring hats are not needed. The metal hats only add unnecessary weight and the potential for breakage when using larger aftermarket cams and larger than stock springs. I *think* the 68404 springs are the same outside diameter as stock, but I'm not positive on that and it's better to not take a chance. Awhile back there were quite a few posts from people running Crane springs that were advertised as "stock replacement" but which are in fact slightly larger OD. While they still fit inside the shields and fit with stock retainers, it was a tighter fit in the shields and spring harmonics during engine operation caused the shields to crack & break. installing positive valve seals allows you to remove the shields and thus one potential point of failure.

sprechs69 - I may have been somewhat optimistic in that price quote as I was assuming a good portion of the assembly work done by you. Sorry about that. If you're having someone else assemble it and ship it to you, then I'd think $2500 is certainly within reason.

Note that if you did the exact same buildup on a 400 with big valve heads you could run a considerably larger cam, end up with an honest 350 horses with excellent driveability, and spend about the same money.