[TheMonkey]

i have a 389 on the stand with a lot of miles. i had to remove a head so that the machinist can remove a couple exhaust bolts with an EDM machine. i want to reassemble the motor in as-is condition with the only machine work to remove the bolts.

the motor leaked oil like crazy. looks like it was from the front of the oil pan. there were several missing oil pan bolts when i got the car. ?!?!?. i have not assembled a Pontiac before. i'm looking for tips on assembly. i know Pontiacs are prone to leaking, and everyone seems to accept a couple drops, but who doesn't accept that, and what do you do to prevent it?

my assembly will include: oil pan, 1 head, valley pan, intake, exhaust manifolds, & exhaust pipes. just get the Felpro kit from Summit? what sealants to use & where?

thanks in advance, Scott.

[cerino2000]

Clean clean clean. I try not to use any of the sealers with the exception of where gaskets meet. For example, the oil pan gasket is for the oil pan and the bottom of the timing cover. I use a bead of sealent where these meet. (at the parting line).

If you have it on a stand you should have no problem getting things clean. I use a wire wheel on the end of a drill and it strips pretty much everything.

The trick on a Pontiac is after the engine has run to where it has heated up and cooled down, you need to go back over the bolts. That is probably why you were missing a few pan bolts. You will be surprised at how loose everything will get once the gasket has had a chance to contract from heat. My intake was nearly finger loose!

Also, I personally (through experience) almost always get felpro gaskets. They seem made better to me for a lot of reasons.

[TheMonkey]

thanks. great tip on re-torqueing after a few heat up phases. i did not know that.

cheers,
Scott.

[Goat4three]

another thing to try is applying sae 30 motor oil to the bolts prior to installation and torquing. this allows a more accurate torque reading due to the increased lubricity between the threads. this information was sent with my arp bolt set.

[BVR421]

monkey, it sounds like the oil leak from the front is the front cover seal around the balancer shaft. Repair involves removing the 160 ft lb balancer bolt, probably using a puller to get the balancer to move the first 1/4". Remove the front cover/water pump assembly as a unit. 4 oil pan bolts, 2 nuts on the studs out of the block and 2 long bolts. 1 long skinny bolt into the intake manifold. Carefully knock out the old seal and drive in a new one with a little permatex on the metal casing. Look at the balancer shaft. It will probably have a groove that the old seal wore in it. If it does a new seal wont help. Get an offset seal to deal with this, Victor makes one that is about a 1/4" further up the shaft so it rides on smooth metal. lube the rubber part of the new seal. Or get a shaft slipper tube that goes on over the balancer shaft. A thin tube. I dont like those but they work. I like the offset seal much better.
Good time to check the timing chain. If its made of nylon dont hesitate CHANGE IT! If its metal and not stretched more than about a 1/2" dont worry about it. Super clean the old gasket off of the block and timing cover. A thin schmeer (is that yiddish?) of gasket sealer on both sides of the new gasket. If you carefully separated the front cover from the oil pan the old gasket can be used if its not torn up. If you use the new front pan gasket that comes with a timing cover gasket kit, glue it down to the oil pan with a 1/8" bead of sealer under where the front pan gasket overlaps the pan rail gaskets. Install the front cover loosely after gluing in a new water washer at the intake manifold interface, install the balancer with a schmeer LOL of grease to lube the new seal. The balancer shaft is what centers the new seal evenly around the shaft before tightening down the front cover bolts. Balancer bolt to 160 ft lbs min.

Ive never seen a actual oil leak from an oil pan gasket ever except when the rear hump gasket is installed improperly. Sometimes some seepage from the individual oil pan bolts but that is easy to deal with. Dont remove pan, dont break the gasket seal. Remove all bolts. Spritz with brake cleaner around the bolt hole (each of them) wipe dry, run a very small circle of silicone around the hole so it will be under the head of the pan bolt, wait 15mins then reinstall pan screws. BTW, your local ACE Hardware store should have replacement bolts for the lost ones. Tighten to no more than 7 ft lbs or you will warp the flange and that screws everything. Thats about finger tight plus a half turn or so.
All of this is in your manual of course with pictures (8-)

[TheMonkey]

BVR:

thanks for the thorough reply.

even with the missing pan bolts, you think it's the shaft seal?

i think i'll snap a pic from underneath for your inspection. it looked pretty dry behind the balancer and super sloppy at the pan gasket. i'm really hoping to not have to remove the timing cover. it might be a good idea though, because when rotate the crank, the slop between the crank and the distributor seemed huge. you said 1/2" inch stretch is the limit; how do i measure that?

any suggestions on determining whether or not it is for sure the shaft?

thanks,
Scott.

[Billy177]

if you have the engine out replace the timing chain and oil pump just to be safe and it is inexpensive.

[BVR421]

Scott maybe it is the pan gasket. that would be great if you dont see any oil directly under the crank hub on the face of the front cover. When those seals leak its usually quite a mess under the balancer and often the spinning balancer will throw evidence over towards the frame and steering box.

By the way, I love your avatar. The monkey looks a little 2 yr old past naptime on one hand or it looks like me when I finally realize Im in way over my head!

[TheMonkey]

BVR:

i took a look at the area behind the balancer, and it is a bigger mess than i remember. i think you are right about the shaft leaking. rats. well, the good news is that i can prob avoid removing the pan rail gaskets (as you suggest) in turn for a timing cover gasket.

couple Qs:

- how do you get the proper leverage to turn the balancer bolt at that much torque (without turning the crank)? it is the 1 big bolt on the front of the crank, yes?
- what is permatex? hardware store or automotive store?
- why spritz the bolt holes with brake cleaner? what does that do?
- where do i get the offset Victor seal if there is a groove?

thanks for the help,
Scott.

[GRX]

"- how do you get the proper leverage to turn the balancer bolt at that much torque (without turning the crank)? it is the 1 big bolt on the front of the crank, yes?"

Yes, one big bolt. There was a thread on this very subject a few days ago which should help.
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=499496

"- what is permatex? hardware store or automotive store?"

Permatex is a brand of sealers. Many different types, usually available at most auto stores. There are guidelines, beyond that what type is best and for what application varries by user.

"- why spritz the bolt holes with brake cleaner? what does that do?"

Cleans the surfaces thus allowing the sealer to stick better.

"- where do i get the offset Victor seal if there is a groove?"

I am not sure where the offset seal are available. Another alternative is to install a press-fit "wear sleeve" to the balancer. Some don't like these since they increase the diameter of the seal area slightly. However I have never found that to a be problem personally. The important thing is to round the leading edge of the sleeve slightly so it doesn't damage the seal upon assembly.

Originally Posted by Billy177

if you have the engine out replace the timing chain and oil pump just to be safe and it is inexpensive.

Oh so true. Money well spent IMO. Always a good idea to open a new pump & inspect for foreign matter. Occasionally chips from the production process are left behind. We all know what that leads to.

[Stuart]

Scott, I can't remember...is that engine original to your '61 or is it out of a later car? The '61 engines had kind of a weird front crank seal with a cork ring that was different than the neoprene kind they used later on.

If you haven't bought new gaskets yet, let me know - I have a box full of unused leftover gaskets and I may have the bits and pieces you need.

[TheMonkey]

Originally Posted by Stuart

Scott, I can't remember...is that engine original to your '61 or is it out of a later car? The '61 engines had kind of a weird front crank seal with a cork ring that was different than the neoprene kind they used later on.

If you haven't bought new gaskets yet, let me know - I have a box full of unused leftover gaskets and I may have the bits and pieces you need.

Stuart- no, it's a YE code 389 from later in the 60s (i think - i'll have to check). I just sent you an email with a couple other Qs. I'll follow up with a list of the gaskets I'll be needing. I have not bought them yet - thanks for the offer!

Scott.

[BVR421]

when did this motor last run?
from the picture, which can be decieving, Im not seeing anything that you wouldnt expect to see from any motor that had been running a few years. I just dont see the big leak you mentioned.

[surfnuke9]

for what its worth, I would recommend you replace timing chain, oil pump, rear main seal and all associated gaskets/seals.

You have the engine on a stand...removing the pan to replace a leaking rear main seal (after reinstallation) would really steam you up.
Time and money well spent to ensure the components you would need to pull the pan/engine in order to replace them are new and will be trouble free.

BTW a "greenie" scrubbing pad and WD-40 works well to remove old gasket material also.

[TheMonkey]

Originally Posted by BVR421

when did this motor last run?
from the picture, which can be decieving, Im not seeing anything that you wouldnt expect to see from any motor that had been running a few years. I just dont see the big leak you mentioned.

i have no idea on the history of this motor. interesting that you think behind the balancer is not so bad. i'll see if i can get a pic of the front of the pan. because i'm pretty sure it's coming from there. i KNOW it's coming from somewhere because there has been cat litter soaking it up.