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#1
11-25-2006, 02:50 AM
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Sandblaster really $crewed up my car
I am doing a frame off restoration on a 1970 GTO 4bbl automatic car. I took the frame and had it sand blasted and powder coated. The frame looks great except for minor pitting on the top of the frame. The bad part is that I can't see the partial VIN number on the back of the frame anymore.
FYI the frame is original to the car and before I had it blasted and Powder coated the numbers were there because I saw them. Now they are GONE! The powder coating shop said that the numbers were still there and that the powder coating process puts such a thick coating on the frame that any numbers will just disappear under the powder coating. I thought about using a wire wheel to remove the powder coating to see if the numbers are still there or maybe I could find some kind of solvent that would remove the powder coating. Anyhow the numbers were barely readable before the frame was sadnblasted and powder coated so I am worried that they may have been blasted off completely. If I wire wheel the powder coating off and the numbers aren't there is there a way to stamp them back on the frame or should I just forget about it and leave it like it is? That's the first problem. Now for the second problem. They were supposed to sandblast only the bottom of the car and the firewall. I put tape on the trim tag to protect it. Well they blasted the bottom, they blasted the top, they blasted the whole damn car and warped the quarter panels, blew holes in the trunk, destroyed the %&*$ trim tag and basically @#$%ed up the whole car. Any suggestions on how can I fix the warped quarter panels without using a lot of bondo? They look like they are warped pretty bad about a foot above the rear wheel well. Any suggestions on how I can figure out what was on the trim tag so I can have one made? The car is Granada Gold, factory AC, 4bbl, automatic, YS engine, non posi, black interior, bucket seats, console, am/fm radio, 8 track, soft ray glass, remote mirror, tilt column, rally gauges, power steering, power brakes, wheel well mouldings, ride and handling package, raised letter tires, rally II wheels, built in Pontiac Michigan. Any help is appreciated. |
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#2
11-25-2006, 08:42 AM
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Talk to your attorney - any blaster worth their salt should know better.
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Some guys they just give up living And start dying little by little, piece by piece, Some guys come home from work and wash up, And go racin' in the street. Bruce Springsteen - Racing In The Street - 1978 |
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#3
11-25-2006, 10:45 AM
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Ditto- the one thing that you NEVER do, is SANDblast sheetmetal like that. Plastic media blast, soda blast, glass beads, yes. But not sand.
Any competent blaster know this. As for the VIN stamp, all that I can say is... Duh... OF COURSE powder coating is going to fill in/obscure light stampings. OF COURSE blasting will tend to level the metal, removing a slight amount. OF COURSE grinding/sanding/wire brushing will make the situation WORSE- not better (since, again, you'll be LEVELLING the powder coating and metal- which is just the opposite of what you want to do). Had this shop EVER done automotive sheetmetal blasting work? It sounds as though they really had no clue what they were doing, and have pretty well screwed up your body, as well as the trim tag. As for the frame- that's the one area where you really shouldn't sweat it- any similar cleaning/coating process will produce similar results. |
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#4
11-25-2006, 11:27 AM
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look at other trim tags from 70 gto's and look at the trim tag section of the resto guide. between these two areas you can get enough info to put together a correct if not identically marked info onto a trim tag. maybe put up a posting asking for photos of trim tags. you can guess the build date from the plant and VIN interrelation (or from the buildsheet if you have it). same for the body unit number (it has a reasonably linear relationship to the VIN number especially at the Pontiac plant where only pontiacs were built). the trick is to see lots of 70 trim tags from cars built in the pontiac plant and knowing the corresponding VIN numbers. all this is assuming there is nothing left of your trim tag, if it still exists try painting it and then sanding it from the back to see if the lettering can be diserned at all.
i went through the same mess about 15 years ago, but i was able to read the tag (enough to connect the dots) from the back side by the method i mentioned above. This is a reminder for everyone that it is a good idea to document all this sort of stuff (photos, markings, numbers, wire routing etc. etc. etc.) before entrusting the car to a resto shop, anything can happen even in a good shop. best of luck and don't let it get you down!!
__________________
My Break Away Squad 1969 Fbird (base OHC, 350, 400HO & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA ht’s) 1969 Custom S 2dr ht 1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr ht & Cvt) 1969 LeMans Safari wagon 1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 ht & Judge ht) 1969 Cat (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr ht) 1969 Ventura wagon 2 seat 1969 Exec 4dr post 1969 2 Bonnie Cvt's & 2 wagons 1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr ht & Cvt) 1969 Grand Prix 2 SJ’s 1969 2+2 2dr ht (Canadian) |
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#5
11-25-2006, 11:47 AM
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1. I really can't understand why you are so upset about not being able to see the #'s on the frame. You can't read them when the car is back on the frame anyway. And if the car is legit, I don't know many people that will go to the trouble to check those numbers.
2. I have done a lot of sandblasting in my day, but never on body panels. And the guy had to just about 'try' to destroy the trim tag. You don't stay in one place for any length of time with a sandblaster, and whoever sandblasted the firewall had to just 'stay' on the trim tag to do enough damage to destroy it. I agree with the others, you will probably have to get a lawyer. Whoever did this was an idiot. The quarters were ruined by the heat of the sand hitting in one place for a long time. A good body man 'may' be able to heat and shrink the quarters back into place.
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LEAD, FOLLOW, OR GET THE HE!! OUT OF THE WAY!!! HONEST JERRY'S SPEED AND EQUIPMENT
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#6
11-25-2006, 06:47 PM
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I will talk to my attorney on Monday and see what he has to say about it. It will probably be cheaper to grin and bear it. I wish I had taken before and after pictures. Lesson learned the hard way.
I'm pretty sure that the numbers on the frame are gone forever. I couldn't wait and wire wheeled the powder coating off and its just bare metal. I can see part of the "P" and 13 and that's about it. If I use my imagination I can make out the rest! LOL! Since it is the original frame I'm just going to leave it the way it is. I went ahead and repainted it with semi gloss and it matches pretty good. The powder coating shop referred me to their sandblaster and said he does cars all the time. Now I know better. As for the trim tag, I think they blasted it enough to slighly lift it away from the cowl and bent/blasted and tore the crap out of it. I know they didn't do it on purpose but still it shouldn't have happened. I was pretty upset last night. After looking more closely at the quarters with a little clearer head today I think they will be ok. They are both warped a little and on the passenger side I can see prior body damage so who knows. Maybe they weren't as good as I thought they were before they were blasted. I think they can be fixed. They might just have a little more filler that I would have liked. Oh well. As for the trim tag, I tried to flatten it back out and do a pencil rub. Not much success there. It is pretty mangled. Amazing what high pressure and some sand will do. I think I can make out the date but I'm not sure. Looks like 090 or maybe 09D can't tell. The body number looks like it might be PON108404. I'm not sure about that one either. How do I confirm or figure out the date and the body number? On my PHS there is an "identification number" at the bottom. Is that number supposed to be the body number because if it is, my numbers aren't even close. Somebody told me that was the engine serial number but I don't think so because the numbers stamped above the YS on my engine are way different. I pretty sure it is the original engine because the VIN number stamped by the timing cover matches the VIN number on the car. Thanks. |
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#7
11-25-2006, 08:25 PM
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09D makes sense, 4th week of september, sounds like you have an early car, do you have a low VIN number (say a 0 after the 242370P1)?, body number is hard to compare with cars built at other plants (body number is always much higher than VIN since VIN was specific to Pontiacs but body number was for all divisions built at that plant). i would think though that at the pontiac home plant the body and VIN numbers would be similar since only pontiacs were built there. is your sequential component of the VIN close to the 8404 of the nuber on the trim tag?
__________________
My Break Away Squad 1969 Fbird (base OHC, 350, 400HO & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA ht’s) 1969 Custom S 2dr ht 1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr ht & Cvt) 1969 LeMans Safari wagon 1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 ht & Judge ht) 1969 Cat (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr ht) 1969 Ventura wagon 2 seat 1969 Exec 4dr post 1969 2 Bonnie Cvt's & 2 wagons 1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr ht & Cvt) 1969 Grand Prix 2 SJ’s 1969 2+2 2dr ht (Canadian) |
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#8
11-25-2006, 10:53 PM
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No, my VIN is 242370P139...
I looked again and it sure does look like 09D to me on the trim tag or what's left of it anyway. I'm not sure about the body number though. It looks like 108404 to me if I use some imagination but its hard to tell. Only way I could make out PON was because I knew it was supposed to be PON. I have tried looking at it at different angles, from the front, from the back, from the side etc. Its just hard to tell. So if my sequence on my VIN starts with 139 then does that mean it is car #139xxx built? Does that match up with 09D? Would PHS be able to help? Is there a book I can buy that will help? I do have the GTO restoration guide. What about the "Identification Number" on my PHS? Can I use that as my body number? It is about 550000 more than 108404. Sorry for all the questions but I appreciate the help. Thanks. |
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#9
11-26-2006, 10:33 AM
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Dave,
Try contacting this co. on your trim tag: http://www.trimtags.com/ I'm sure they've seen this happen more than once before so they may be able to get most if not all of your info stamped on a new tag for you. Good luck! |
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#10
11-26-2006, 11:03 AM
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Daves67GTO....Could you post a picture of the tag? can't imagine it totally getting destroyed beyond recognition by sandblasting. I blasted my tag with no signs of degradation. They would half to have done it intentionally.
A trimtag is die stamped...meaning it's stamping is equally legible on both sides of the tag. A trimtag is so thin they would blast thru the tag before they could eliminate all the type on both sides. Good luck "building your car" |
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#11
11-26-2006, 02:26 PM
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I will take a picture of my tag tomorrow so you can see what I am talking about. The guy at the sandblaster that probably did the blasting is probably an "undocumented worker" that didn't give a flip. My best guess is that he probably bent the tag while blasting, bent it back, kept blasting, bent it again and bent it back and so on.
On the bright side, the floors and trunk are great. There isn't a trace of seam sealer left on the firewall, rear lip, etc. Both doors and fenders had obviously been banged up and worked before. No rust anywhere just bad body work in the past. It will be a while before I get to them. I went to the trimtags.com website and I also found another website called datatags.com and I am going to call both of them tomorrow. Maybe one of them will let me just send them my tag. That way, they can figure it out and I can quit bugging you guys about it and I can just quit worrying about it. So I guess my question now is should I go ahead and "wing it" and just go with "09D" for the date and "108404" for the body number? If I end up with a new trim tag that isn't correct as far as date and body numbers is that a big deal? The VIN on the car matches the VIN on the engine and it matched the VIN on the frame before it was blasted. Apparently there is at least one if not two more hidden VINs on the frame. I am pretty confident at least one of them probably survived the blaster so I'm not worried about the frame anymore. Also, I have the complete title history for the car going back to 1976 and I have an old cigar box full of old gas receipts, etc. One more thing, I can't find any VIN numbers anywhere on the tranny so does that mean it isn't original? Ok, two more things! Isn't there supposed to be a VIN number somewhere by where the A/C box mounts or somewhere under the dash? I can't find any numbers anywhere around the A/C holes. In fact the only numbers I can find on the firewall are on the piece where the fender bolts on. Is that normal? |
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#12
11-26-2006, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
In a business situation giving recommendations like that is a very bad idea,as it opens you up to liability concerns/issues. As a mechanic,not a single shop I ever worked at would give recommendations if there was something that the shop could'nt handle for a customer on it's own,and they could'nt take the job,we just thanked them for their consideration and appologized that we could'nt help them,and sent them down the road sans recommendations. If they asked why no recommendation,we'd explain this to them,nothing to fear in honesty. Nothing would piss off a potential customer faster than giving a recommendation and having the other firm blow the job! Ruins your chance of that cutomer ever coming back for more work... Sounds like both those places have a lot to learn,sorry you had to be the victim of their lack of knowledge and skill. Bret. |
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#13
11-26-2006, 05:29 PM
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I think my biggest problem if I were to sue is proving the condition of the car prior to sandblasting. I have pictures of the car but it was obvious that body work had been done to the car because of the cracks in the paint. The trim tag is another issue as is the frame.
I'm ok about the frame since I understand that there are additional VINs on it. As for the trim tag I am pretty pi$$ed off about that. Even if they can reproduce it, I can never be sure of the numbers. Will that compromise the value of the car? Maybe to some but not to me and since I plan on keeping the car I guess it really doesn't matter. It would have been nice to be able to get it right and who knows, maybe the tag makers can figure it out. I learned a hard lesson and I hope my screw-up helps somebody else from making the same mistake. DON'T SANDBLAST YOUR CAR NO MATTER HOW GOOD THEY SAY THEY ARE!!! There. I feel better now! |
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#14
11-26-2006, 06:17 PM
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The trans case VIN is VERY HARD to find even when knowing where to look!
Its on drivers side stamped on little ledge just behind selector lever. Its not where it looks like it should go and on leading edge of case very small. You either need to run on its side or get on floor and look sideways at case to see. Flashlight and mag glass helps also. I have pics at home I can post later tonight. |
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#15
11-26-2006, 08:43 PM
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You are right! It is hard to find but I found it and I really hate to admit it but the number doesn't match my VIN. Its not even close. At least I found it though. Thanks for the help!
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#16
11-26-2006, 10:09 PM
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OH NOOOOO!!!! The trans VIN doesn't MATCH!!!!!
Ohmigawd, ohmigawd, ohmigawd- I guess the car is scrap now... Whew- Boy am I glad the belts/hoses/air in the tires is original to my car. I just couldn't STAND to think otherwise (rolling eyes)... There is a point at which "numbers matching" becomes ridiculous. As evidenced by your undue concern over the entirely-undetectible frame VIN stampings, you're way beyond that point. Point is- get over it- the car is 36 years old. Either enjoy it for what it is, and enjoy getting it back on the road, or sell it before you drive yourself completely insane. |
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#17
11-26-2006, 10:43 PM
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Dave, I see you found it.....here are two pics/two diff trans for anyone else who might want to know.
Last edited by JLHarper; 08-07-2007 at 09:32 PM. |
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#18
11-27-2006, 12:55 AM
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What did I do to pi$$ you off TJH???
TJH says:
Quote:
I'm sorry if I offended you TJH. It is MY car and since I am doing the work on the car I want it to be as nice and as correct as I can make it. It's not a Judge. It's not a convertible. It is an ordinary hardtop GTO but it is MY GTO and if I want it done a certain way then that's the way it is going to get done. The car is NOT for sale and I am not planning on entering it in any shows. TJH, it is NOT your car and you aren't the one putting the blood sweat and tears into restoring it either. I screwed up by sandblasting the damn car in the first place and I am the one that will end up paying the price - not you. I was hoping the tranny was original but it isn't. No problem for me. I freaked out about the numbers disappearing on the frame but I got over it and said so. My engine is "numbers matching" except for the Holley Street Dominator intake and the Holley 750 double pumper carburator. Oh, I almost forgot to mention my NON-original MSD distributor and MSD 6-AL box which was mounted on the firewall and that is probably where I'll mount it again. While we are on the subject, my dash is cut for a CD player and I'm keeping it that way so I can have a CD player in the car. I'm also going to reinstall the speakers in the package tray which is cut up too. Is that ok with you? Forget about the frame. I did. Forget about the warped body. I will fix it. My tranny IS NOT numbers matching. So what. It will be going back in the car. As for the trim tag, I have decided to go with 09D and 108404 and be done with it. I appreciate all the constructive help I got from everyone else. |
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#19
11-27-2006, 09:17 AM
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Actually, that was not meant as harassment- it was meant as advice.
Were you, in your earlier automotive interests, by chance into mid-year Corvettes? Because those are the only people I have ever met with anywhere near to your paranoia and overzealousness about "numbers". Quite simply, they are no fun to be artound, because they are forever notpicking things that the often really have no clue about. On the production lines, in the '60's, '70's, and even today (although to a lesser extent), things happened. VIN's were mis-stamped on blocks. Frame stampings wree mis-stamped,. or perhaps forgotten about altogether. Same for "hidden" body stamps. Now, if you happen to own a car like this, that was perhaps built on the Monday following the Super Bowl, with line workers who were suffering from lack of sleep as well as being hung over, does that make your car worthless? Of course not. These are man-made objects- with imperfections occurring as a result. I'm glad to hear that you want to build the car as you want it- it's just with all of the questions regarding nit-picking of things that, literally, no one will ever see (except for the data tag and the body sheetmetal warpage- those are serious matters), it really sounded like you were taking all of the fun out of doing a car. And really, who needs more tedium in their lives? Now, take a deep breath, and relax. My last post was just joking around, with a bit of advice thrown in. Don't take things quite so seriously- your blood pressure will thank you for it. |
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#20
11-27-2006, 09:33 AM
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i'm pretty sure that a sandblaster wouldnt take off any etched in or stamped numbers, its definately the powdercating filling it up and why powder coat if you are trying to keep it that original, imo i would have the frame painted like factory for a perfect restoration and powdercoated if i didnt care about orginality
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