[pack69gto]

Well they dont look like clones, the way they bounce around,have to get mind out of cutter,lol

[pontiacpetey]

Now if I could find a pair of NOS for the wife.....

[The Boss]

I'd like to check out the tail panel on that one too.

[Andre]

I have seen some Judge clones that were basically stickers, spoiler etc like my ex 1969 GTO which (was a column shift car), and then I have seen some others that are done so well, that I would not have believed that they werent a clone until I was told different by the owner.

[gregsgtos2]

after MUCH further review,I THINK THOSE BOOBIES ARE CLONED!

[brianberes]

Real boobs, fake boobs there all good and we love them.

[SWEETJUDGE]

Enough about boobs.......... I remeber when a pair of boobs were a couple of dumb guys...........
In todays day & age THE BUYER most be MORE knowledgable than the seller.
DONT take anybodies word. Do your homework. Get educated. If people get a change to make an extra buck they will. I guess im against the clones if its intenet is to mislead but if your upfront about it i guess no harm.

[FireGoat_Ben]

I've never been offended by the cloning of any GTO or Judge as long as the car is not aimed at decieving the next buyer. I've got a friend who has a beautiful '68 LeMans convertible that is now living life as a GTO. His intention is not to ever sell the car, but I'm sure if it ever was to hit the market, it would be disclosed. I also get tired of clicking on links to auctions or whatever that say "GTO", only to find that they are a VERY poor attempt at a clone (i.e. badges in the grills alone or stickers only).
I'm "cloning" my '69 convertible GTO a Judge, but only to suit me. If the car is ever offered for sale, I'll either disclose it or "de-Judge" it.

[dr-doug]

I recognize those, that's my old girlfriend, Norma Stitz... .DW

[70RamAirIIITA]

Most people who create a "clone" cannot afford a "real" Judge or Trans Am, so they do the next best thing. You should consider yourself flattered and fortunate that so many people can only dream about owning a car like the one you already own. You shouldn't sit on your high horse looking down at everyone; rather, you should serve as a roll model for the Pontiac community, provide encouragement and act as a mentor, to be someone who people can look up to and respect.

Stating that you "hate" clones and "hate" the people who build them only shows your immaturity; it's time you grew up and realized you own something that most people who drool over these cars can only dream about owning.

[MCronkGTO]

Clones are a hate/love relationship. Everything said about affording and driving a real Judge today is a good reason to build one yourself. I always wanted a 69 Judge but with todays values I doubt I will ever own a real one or even a very well done clone.

However for every person who said they would never sell thier clone as the real deal, what happens when then next guy or the owner after that sells the car? With todays skyrocketing prices the temptation for some shady character to make a profit is definitely a problem. I recently attended a highly regarded auction (not BJ) and was surprised to see how many people paying big bucks did not know much about the car they were bidding on. They were bidding on the quality of the workmanship and taking the auction statements as fact. The information used during the auction was supplied by the seller and even though the auction website acknowledged this it was never announced to the bidding audience. I saw a half dozen 69 Judges that were not correct yet they were perceived as being so. One was supposedly a GTOAA Gold winner (A/C was converted to R-134 and even had the stickers on compressor etc...maybe conversion was after GTOAA judging?). Another interesting fall out from clones is that they can bring just about as much money as the real deal at an auction. I have seen modified cars bring more money than a correct concourse restoration. The problem is what happens to the REAL Judges when the waters become so muddy with clones and modified cars? Will they have to compete with the clones for top dollar? At this particular auction there were a boat load of Z-28 Camaro's most equipped with cross ram induction. There was a joke going around that there were more cross ram cars at this auction than were ever built.

I am all for doing what you want with your own car. If the collector car market were to collapse tomorrow I would enjoy my Pontiacs just as much as I do now. I don't think there is an easy answer to the clone question. All I can say is it will have an impact on the hobby and please do as much research as possible before buying anything.

MarkC

[pack69gto]

My car is a nos matching 69 gto, i do not want to build it into a judge clone, but i am thinking about adding the ram air option to it, Some people see it and say to me nice a 69 judge and i have to explain it is not one, But you can see were there would be a market to mislead a buyer, But personally i will never do that,And like lots are saying to buy a real judge in the condition of my car would be a bring your wallet event, so i will have to be satisfied with this car.

[gto4evr]

McronkGTO makes a good point but lets take it one step further. What does it tell you when a well done clone pulls the same money as a true GTO? Since it's the semantics of a cars history (not it's actual current presence), and a vin stamp, you are dealing with two physically IDENTICAL cars. Perceived value by the owners of Born GTO's doesn't change what the "common" folk are willing to pay. Again, I think the major attitude against clones is pushed by those above who don't like the rarity of the "true" cars diluted with cars that can be just as nice and not just virtually, but ACTUALLY identical. I'm not talking grille emblem swaps, I'm talking about COMPLETE change overs. This entire argument would be different if we were talking taking a 69 chevelle and swapping out all the chevy badges for GTO emblems and grafting two nostrils on the hood. A GTO was an OPTION on a Lemans at it's inception and regardless that they gave it it's own model number later, it was STILL just an upgraded option on the A body Tempest/Lemans.

If I take an automatic car and do a 4 spd changeover, is it a clone 4 speed? don't I have a clutch? Don't I have to shift gears while I'm driving? Does it drive or feel any different what-so-ever from a born 4 speed?

Get over your magic 242 vin number. When that goat rips down the street past you, are appreciating the car or are you wishing it would pull over so you can run over and check the vin code and cry "foul"? I own both a real Judge hardtop and a clone GTO vert so I'm on both sides of the ownership fence. I worried about what everyone would say when I cloned my 69 Lemans into a GTO convertible.....It was wasted time. All I've ever gotten was compliments, and what ever was said behind my back can stay there, it's MY CAR. Do I call it a GTO? Actually, I just call it "my '69 Convertible", Is it a GTO? Depends on how you define it. This is a circular argument. Next comes religion and politics!

[goatmanmitch]

Originally Posted by green70judge

I can't keep quiet anymore... I hate the fact that people are cloning Judges. Simply put if you don't have one...then accept it. .

I aspire to one day have so much money that I can buy a car that is unobtainable to most everyone except the wealthy, then I am going to post how I hate all these little people who want this car and the offensive way in which they obtain something visually close. How dare them! People who are not rich should just accept it. Peasants.

What an elitist remark. It is possible that you are not snob, even though it is hard to comprehend with a remark like "if you don't have one(if you don't have mega bucks)...then accept it". I hope your not a snob. But read what your original post says. Read the hidden meanings, intentional or not. Think things through before you hit the submit post button. You are looking down on many of us. This type of remark should be said in the company of your rich buddies, people who share the same air as you. Man, great for you that you have such a fine car, shame on you for your superiority. I'm glad that I have the privilege of knowing a half dozen or so Judge owners, among them Dennis and Scott here on the boards. And I am honored that I could go so far as to call them friends and that they don't look down on me. Or my 66, strong number four or weak number three condition LeMans. Now if I can just get a mig to weld that in the new tail panel thats been sitting in my basement I will be all set. Mitch

[gtohurstjudge]

I built my Judge convertible clone 33 years ago and am still enjoying
it. I never considered selling it to buy a real one back when real ones were
cheap because my car was always nicer and more rust free than the real ones that I found. I always considered the Judge option to be just another
GTO option like power windows or A/C. If my car was real I would be afraid to
drive it, couldn't afford the insurance on it, and would have succumbed to the temptation to cash it in for big bucks by now. In short, I love this car
and feel absolutely no need to apologize for building it. Many of the people who may be critical of my car were not even born yet when the conversion was done! If Pontiac had felt it was anything more than just another option they would have given it a different VIN number. Deception when selling the car is a nonissue at this point. Everyone on planet earth knows about PHS
by now. Also, rest assured there are plenty of Judges out there that are
a Lemans or GTO with a tag swap. At least I know what my car really is because I know the history of it.

[taximan]

Anybody who has seen gtohurstjudge's car, would never use the word clone in the same sentence. It is one of the 5 nicest vehicles ever to wear the Indian badge. IMHO

FYI, His "clone" usually wins best of show where ever it is displayed.

[fastgtr]

I have both a tempest/67 GTO clone that I LOUDLY tell everyone is a clone-you couldnt get a two door post if ya tried in 67 in a gto and i wanted that extra stiffness, and i am lucky enough to have a new 06 GTO. Owned many GTO's of the real kind in the past, but the purists always guilted me out of doing anything I wanted to those-oh NO! That is anumbers matching car! So what! It's MY numbers matching car, and if i wanna f ing modify it, shut yer pie hole ya f ing moron! I gottas ask anywyas...what is it yo ya anyway? As long as you have your car as it is was configured, and you are happy, why piss on our parade?

[fastgtr]

I have both a tempest/67 GTO clone with a 600 hp brute force motor that I LOUDLY tell everyone is a clone-you couldnt get a two door post if ya tried in 67 in a gto and i wanted that extra stiffness, and i am lucky enough to have a new 06 GTO. Owned many GTO's of the real kind in the past, but the purists always guilted me out of doing anything I wanted to those-oh NO! That is anumbers matching car! So what!?? It's MY numbers matching car, and if i wanna f ing modify it, shut yer pie hole! I gottas ask anywyas...what is it to ya anyway? As long as you have your car as it is was configured, and you are happy, why piss on our parade? I hate elitist thinking, and a muscle car is a muscle car, unless of course, you would like to race and put that axiom to the test!!! This is no different than the old stupid and childish game of FORD-found on road dead...etc. I hate that! A cool car is a cool car. I prefer Pontiacs, but I always go for cool. I prefer BC Rich handmade guitars over PRS too, but to each his own. Each Guitar has it's own strengths, and are considered to be the finest ever made. I own them both. Several examples of each actuallly. I will put my "hated" clone up against your GTO Judge anytime, or my new 06. Whatever ya like. The car doesn't make the driver, it's the driver that makes the car. And in our cases, it is usually a lot more true than the original coiner of the phrase intended! Save the hate for those who have actually HARMED you. Funny thing is, I have never had one comment other than, what a beautiful car. I have $50K tied up in it. I wouldnt dream of ruining a "real GTO and upsetting this guy so how do you win?

[69RamAirDave]

I like the Pontiacs a lot, but am also very involved in the bowties.

The whole "clone" thing has a different meaning with the non-ponchos. No PHS equivalent.

Clone, tribute, recreation is a much more sketchy area without PHS. It is one thing to make a car "look" like something it is not, but once you start messing around with the numbers, that moves into an entirely different area.

With some of the Chevys, its in the trim tag and the VIN means almost nothing. With the Pontiacs and the VIN tied to PHS, thats totally different.

PHS is tied to the VIN. If you tamper with the VIN, thats criminal. So thats where I see the difference in "clones" as far as the Pontiacs go.

Trim tag swapping is not illegal, although most times immoral and in attempt to deceive. Messing with the VIN to deceive is fraud, and should hold a seperation from the "clones".

So what Im saying is that a "clone" is done to "look" like a car. Once you start tampering with the numbers, it moves beyond clone and into fraud, and often times into an illegal area.

[green70judge]

Okay so I can admit when I am wrong...I shouldn't have used the word hate...and I understand some cases of cloning and agree with some of you... I was simply saying that I do not care for those people who try to decieve others by doing shady things with vins, stamps, etc.. I am not rich by any means or a snob.. just a guy who was at the right place and right time to pick up one of these cars 12 years ago when I was 17...I did not mean to offend anyone by any means, I apologize if I did.