[Skip Fix]

Mike doesn't just shift his "thrown together" D port Pontiacs at 5500 though Larry and he did have one 70 GTO in the 10s with one! Not sure where Dave shifted but his cars do fly-what is he up to lately Larry, heard he was going Chevy or Ford? Mike's red TA and mine ran fender to fender one PSN, his getting a 10.90 to my 11.0.

GJN I'll bet Jim, Cliff and many others have gone though that many convertors,gears, cams,heads etc to get their car where they are today.Just part of dialing in the combination. That's how his wagon has gone from 12s to 11s.If you read the old articles testing intakes and exhaust the car was only in the 12s. Different parts with different mods got it there, not the initial combination.

Floyd's car uses alot of similar parts as Jim's so another good example of moderate parts going darn fast, but I don't think "bargain parts", as much time working spent on the individual parts as Jim's car. He even had the same cam I'm running in it at one time, and one year had to put on a Holley to get in the 11s. Not having the weight distribution of the wagon it hooks just a little differently.But definitely another solid 11s car with D ports.

Yes guys can run well, as I have said before, with many factory parts and D port heads, but "big" heads don't mean a "death sentence of high rpm" which is where this discussion always goes.And if you walk through the staging lanes of the cars running 11s there may be a few iron heads , but ALOT more aluminum heads-just look at HPP shootout write ups. Read the dyno posting MANY 5700 peaks with BIG heads.The big heads don't make them high expense motors either when you price new valves,springs,guides,seats and porting.

[Larry Navarro]

Dave bought a nice '84 Z28 from a guy that put some heavy-hittin' parts in the chassis and driveline.
Strange or Moser 9" rear, adjustable torque arm, frame connectors, 6-point cage. It's built nice. Small block chevy with some secret Torqjunki "high-tech" parts.

[Skip Fix]

So over to the "dark side"! Those 3rd Gen really hook. I remember I think it was Neil Owens in some of the "street car" events running 9s with a Pontiac motor in one with RAIV heads.

[slowbird]

Anyone seen this months Popular Hot Rodding issue? The did a feature on SAM's engine they built for the Engine Master challenge. In it they say that they should have gone with a larger port and valve, they feel it would have gave them more low end power (they were running the smallest ports and intake valves out of the top 6 finalist and had the third highest peak power in the competition). Kaase used the same heads he used on his 507 Pontiac on this years 434 and he almost won it. There is more to how and where an engine will make power than just port size or cfm.

[Larry Navarro]

Good article.
There's also a feature on a '75 T/A with "alloy head's" and big ports.

[Cliff R]

Skip, one thing is for certain, this discussion always goes back and forth between those who are vested in big flowing heads and other high rpm oriented parts, comparing them to some of us who use "tractor" engines to get our junk down the track with respectable times.

Regardless of the methods one chooses to propell his/her car down the track, it ALWAYS takes considerable time/efforts to get everything "dialed in"....and typically quite a bit of expense as well. For myself, I've taken my car with the 455 engine from the first off the trailer runs of 12.90's, clear down to 11.50's using the same basic combination, making several dozen changes along the way, each one providing a couple of tenths improvement....all totalled up being worth nearly 1.5 seconds and 10mph!

One thing that never changes, there is certainly more than one way to get the job done, and being that it's a hobby, no RULE BOOK telling us how we have to do it!.......Cliff

[Half-Inch Stud]

""""""...them to some of us who use "tractor" engines to get our junk down the track with respectable times.""""""

Yeap, that about sums it up for me (takes slug from beermug). - Bowler in Groundhog day. HIS

[Larry Navarro]

In comparison...a little history.
Many proven combinations here that will give most folks an idea of what it takes in time, parts and money, to run solidly in the 11's while being very streetable.

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....uild455sf.html

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....455jh2006.html

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....455sc2003.html

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....55fhand02.html

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....uild455dk.html

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....ld455jh00.html

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....uild45500.html

[Cliff R]

Larry, the other "monkey wrench" thrown into this and other similiar topics is the definition of a "street car". The range is so broad, that it includes stone stock looking daily driven cars, to full blown race cars with a working tailight, some attempt at an exhaust system, and a license plate....and anything in between!

I don't ever remember seeing any distinct classification, or set of rules that qualify any particular car for the title? For most folks, if they can drive it on the street, and are happy with it's performance in any/all areas, good enough for them, and good enough for me......Cliff

[Juliano]

A street car should be, As defined by the Federal Transportation Act to pass a 118 item safety check inspection ensuring the new or used vehicle meets federal safety standards before being able to be plated for the road. from Canada..................

[Skip Fix]

One thing that never changes, there is certainly more than one way to get the job done, and being that it's a hobby, no RULE BOOK telling us how we have to do it!.......Cliff Amen Cliff! My exact thoughts, fast Ponchos.

"Regardless of the methods one chooses to propell his/her car down the track, it ALWAYS takes considerable time/efforts to get everything "dialed in"....and typically quite a bit of expense as well" --My other thoughts even when using "less expensive" factory parts as a starting point, you still spend the bucks. Kind of like that free puppy or horse- the expenses are just starting.

Cliff your new KRE heads are some of those "big high rpm "heads others talk about.

But the biggest thing I've tried to bring up is many of the "big head" combination ARE NOT!!! any higher rpm motors than the smaller ports. From Pontiac engineers HO heads, to your KRE heads, to many others E heads. So to blanketly say using a bigger head will make your motor a high rpm motor unfit for the street because there is no low end is no where near correct as it is the whole combination. Steve's solid roller 220+cc E head motor is barely over 5600 rpm peak, still tractor motor range.

So scaring some enthusiasts with the threat of no bottom end from using larger KRE or E heads they could lose the opportunity to go maybe a little faster as your car did switching to "BIG HIGH RPM" heads from smaller "tractor motor iron heads". Why not start there for the detailed tuning?

Showing that the same sized heads can also have as varied power ranges also shows it's just not as simplified as head size.

Larry good selection of alot of different combos and ways to get there, yours is another also. get that tranny fixed and let's go racing !

That PSN we all had a hard time getting in the 11s Floyd too, good old Texas heat! My 455 improved alot with an intake, 3" X exhaust, but the biggest was the convertor,tranny change from that one. The year we made those changes at the 1/8 mile PSN were were 7.08s and David saw my tail lights.

Here's another iron head 400 combo for you that was knocking on the 11s So the little guys can get pretty close too, even with "big iron heads".

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....uild400SF.html

[gjn]

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....d455GregN.html

11.935 @ 113.33 last week.

Skip,

How much did you pick up with the 3" exhaust? I have 1 5/8" headers and 2 1/2" flowmaster exhaust with h-pipe. I plan on going to 3 inch x-pipe with decent mufflers.

[Skip Fix]

Previous the car had a 3" H pipe into 3" Flowmaster 2 chanbers and 2 1/2" mandrel tailpipes(NMCA rule). Open headers the car generally ran anywhere from 0.1-0.3 seconds faster depending on the cam/headers. Making the tranny convertor swap we noticed that the old system has some rust so we removed it compeletely, not even pipes on the car. Did some track tuning. Then added the 3" Dr. gas X, 3" welded ultraflows, 3" mandrel tailpipes and the car ran the same even with the extra weight, and is so much quieter.Mike Cooke on his old red TA also felt going to a 3" system helped get his car in the 10s.

The 400 also picked up with 1 3/4 over 2" headers into that first system. The RAIV heads had a reversion issue with the slow velocity of the larger 2" headers. So velocity can be an issue on the back end even with a low restriction muffler.

Swapping front "skinnies" picked my car up 0.1 over 15x8 snowflakes also.

[Larry Navarro]

Interesting point about that Texas heat, Skip.
That year at PSN , your 3735 pound black TA ran 11.92 @ 113.30 in the blistering100-degree summer heat. Your TA's quickest 60' time was 1.71 seconds.with that new 455 engine.
A year or two later I ran in the PSN in that same heat.
Now since my car (in it's present state) didn't make the lists of examples in the previous post, I will disclose the key features on my car/engine.
The '79 which I might add is a 100lbs. heavier than yours, stock suspension, shifting a 4speed with 3.23 rear gear, drag radials, 473 with 11:1CR, iron D-ports at 276cfm, UDyne flat tappet solid, 255/263 @.050", 1-3/4" headers with 2.5" full exhaust, RPM intake and 850 Demon breathing through a 2.75" tall PAPER filter.
Performance in texas heat.....again, shifting a 4speed with 60ft's in the range of 1.90-95, was 11.89@ 119mph
Now, I'll use MPH figures to clarify the amount of power each combo is making; after all, MPH is MPH no matter what tranny, convertor or rear gear is used to achieve it, right?

[Steve C.]

Larry, I presume you are talking about the PSN race in 2005. I do remember it was hot and I had issues that year. My car only ran 11.31 at 120.33 mph. The previous year at the PSN race it was 89 degrees around 2:00 in the afternoon and my car ran a best of 11.06 at 123.77 mph that year. Big differance.

[Larry Navarro]

'05 was the year I didn't race and brought that Martinique blue '78T/A that I had painted to sell, remember?
So I believe it was '04 when I did the shootout.

[Skip Fix]

Larry great results on your car, probably could go faster in cooler air too,but you are incorrect on comparing mph a manual is completely locked up and mph higher than an auto with the convertor and tranny loss.Look at NHRA class records sticks always higher. The guys that chassis dyno also saw the same thing,much lower loss with a stick.

Floyd barely got in the 11s that same day as the track was way off also.

One of next PSNs at the 1/8 mile still hot temps(son puked from the heat) the car ran 7.08@ 99 in the 1/8 with a 1.55 60 ft. The 1/4 mile run with Mike Cooke the next year just a little cooler 11.08@ 122 mph, then tech put a damper on full out runs.

[Skip Fix]

Good air this weekend, let's slam an auto(or my 5 speed) in that 79 and go racing Larry! I'l bet we can hunt one up!

We're getting close to being out of our few months of good air here.

[Larry Navarro]

Skip, let's backup and think about this for a minute. How do the "traps" at the end of the 1/4 mile know whether the car has a 4speed or an automatic? If that's the case lets compare rear gear ratio's in regards to trap speed.
MPH is MPH no matter how it is achieved from 0' -1320'.
I stand to be corrected if I'm missing something here.
Another point I forgot to mention earlier is shifting your car at 6300-6500RPM, while I shift off a 6000RPM "pill".
How can I get a higher MPH than yours with less power producing components?

[Skip Fix]

Larry -correct mph is mph,and its relation to REAR WHEEL HP is probably correct for auto or stick. It's when we try and use mph or a chassis dyno to gauge FLYWHEEL HP that the differences come into play, which is what I assume you were doing. Then it's apples to oranges.

Automatics are well known to loose more HP as they are not as effecient as a locked up standard due to higher rotating weights, fluid coupling of the convertor-shoot you're the engineer you should know all of that. Why do stick cars get higher EPA ratings compared to the same vehicle with an auto. Why the TH 350 is more effecient than a TH 400 less rotating weight,why the stockers and SS guys spend $2500 for lightweight auto trannies. Why have the OEMs all have lockup convertors to try and get better effeciency?

Even 12 bolts are more HP effecient than a 9" so there are alot of drivetrain variables in comparing rear wheel HP. I'd bet even a bias tire at less PSI sucks more Hp than a radial, wider vs skinnier-my own car showed that with front runners faster than the weight reduction.

So the auto tranny folks have to have more flywheel HP to have the same rear wheel HP -well docimented

Also recently some tracks have changed the mph traps boundries. MPH is computer calculated by the time between the two sensors. No longer 66 ft before and 66 ft after, the finish line is the last timer for mph(Sealy is), so that could even add another variable from track to track if you are acclerating that last 66 ft that are no longer there could have less mph at that track. Since accleration is different than a constant velocity I'd bet the formulas would show a little lower at the new marker.

And gosh I thought my car was/is running 99 in the 1/8, 123mph with the old motor 124mph with the new one in the 1/4 with 25 less CI, so a smaller higher rpm motor and more than 117. Shoot my old RAIV headed 455 ran 115mph with the HO intake roadrace suspension and 3.42s AND an auto.

The "first version" of the 455 is on Bill's site had the HO intake on it as the whole combination was thrown together in a time crunch for the PSN, so it was down on HP from its tuned version.We can sure see what my HO will do to your mph as a swap from your RPM I know what it'll do to the airflow I think Rocky has stated what they do ported also.

Gosh those 6000 shift points move it out of 5500 D port tractor motor status don't they?? My current 6300 is based on dyno peak and hasn't been played with at the track to see if it runs as fast at lower rpms.