[RAII 4-speed]

Steve, I do not mind at all...Yes it is a great car....It is going for sale as well as my 67.

[Cortezls6]

Congratulations to Jim Mino at running a 12.10 at the track in Virginia last Saturday. Folks, he and Bruno(12.23) got those Pontiacs running hard. Pure Stock is where it's at.

Jim

[The Boss]

Jim's been the man to beat for a long time now.

[Cammer-6]

yes ,doing amazing things with those"stock"big block;^)Pontiacs

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by Cortezls6

Congratulations to Jim Mino at running a 12.10 at the track in Virginia last Saturday. Folks, he and Bruno(12.23) got those Pontiacs running hard. Pure Stock is where it's at.

Jim

That's the fastest time I've ever heard of from Mino in P/S. VMP has great traction.
He hurts people everywhere he goes.

Was Bruno running an IV T/A ?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Einstein: the Reddish/Bronzish Metallic 68 Bird Vert you guys saw in 1986 at G'boro POCI was a RA1 conversion. Originally an HO 400/4spd. Supposed to have been special ordered that exterior color. An old friend of mine owned the Car back when you saw it at POCI - it was in that condition when he bought it. He sold it shortly thereafter. Vaguely - I'm thinking it just had RAM AIR on the hood. Car is supposed to still be in NC. It was very nice and correctly done, fooled at least 2 buyers back then. Clone status was not discovered until early 90's. I had interest in 86, but price was about 2grand above my threshold.

If Marty had repo'd those emblems at any point in time - rest assured there would be 200-300 sets in circulation. He could have easily sold that many sets, or more. He was a major player in early Bird market throughout the 80's. Fantastic Five newsletter. Trivia that coin phrase and stump most any early Birder.

1968 Ram1 and Ram2 owners: do any of you guys with PHS documentation show a price on your 347 option ? From what I remember seeing on 68 Billing History stuff from PHS - no prices given. So, how do we correctly relate option price to the available PHS info to deduce whether its an Uno or a Duece, if no prices given ? Help me out a little here.

[Cortezls6]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

That's the fastest time I've ever heard of from Mino in P/S. VMP has great traction.
He hurts people everywhere he goes.

Was Bruno running an IV T/A ?

Yes, he was running the 1969 Ram Air IV. I had heard that the track weather was at sea level conditions during the race. I went back and found the weather at VMP and even thought the track weather was good, track altitude turned out to be 760ftASL which is even more impressive runs. The track was really sticky for the 60ft times but impressive none the less. If Bruno or Jim gets on this post I would love to know their 60fts.

Jim

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Bruno had been running a Green 69 GTO RamIV. And very well too.

At VMP in the Spring, he mentioned some secret plans for an IV F-body, soon.
Then he slipped in a pic of a 69 Trans Am at his garage not too long ago.
So I had to ask if it was a 69 IV T/A he was running, not his Green GTO.

Thanks Cortez. Welcome to the Forum.

[Cammer-6]

[QUOTE=

1968 Ram1 and Ram2 owners: do any of you guys with PHS documentation show a price on your 347 option ? From what I remember seeing on 68 Billing History stuff from PHS - no prices given. So, how do we correctly relate option price to the available PHS info to deduce whether its an Uno or a Duece, if no prices given ? Help me out a little here.[/QUOTE]


Go back thru the posts on this
I thought I had already answered the question of documenting when the price change was in effect for RAI-RAII running change.
Dealer price sheets do show the exact date of the price increase.
I often wondered why I needed multiple copies of documentation and in this case it pays off.


BTW Martys NL was "The Magnificent Five"

Also just found a copy of Johns NL"Purely PMD Pipeline"

[Steve Hoog]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Bruno had been running a Green 69 GTO RamIV. And very well too.

At VMP in the Spring, he mentioned some secret plans for an IV F-body, soon.
Then he slipped in a pic of a 69 Trans Am at his garage not too long ago.
So I had to ask if it was a 69 IV T/A he was running, not his Green GTO.

Thanks Cortez. Welcome to the Forum.

BVZ

That's probably that TA he got from Gary; if memory serves me correct it was a III with a IV. There is some thread where Bruno told about the motor he got out of this car and put in that car; and what he was going to put in the TA, but I don't remember which thread. Bruno builds some wicked cars; and if he says he's building a secret motor, he means it.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by rdl

... refined it further bringing a decade of NHRA experience to finally achieve the 12.3x that still stands today as the fastest P/S Pontiac. That said, ... if this IV car is ready... lookout.

rdl, it looks like JMino (Dr.Duece) (12.10) is ready for anybodies IV machine. Or anykind else.

Steve, he was wanting to keep the Car being done for race a secret long as possible for some reason - not anything about the engine. They have to follow teardown specs on builds. Bruno and Mino both play that part by the book. I think it's becoming a contest of who will run the loosest tolerances and thinnest oil now.

There is/was an inside/outside rivalry of who will be the first to put an early Bird Pontiac into the 11.99 P/S club. The race is on.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by Cammer-6

Go back thru the posts on this ...

Cam, you have supplied a lot of heavy duty info in this thread. I had just read all 4pages for the first time right before my first response. Can you post the different data you thought you still might have for us to be able to educate others with ? I know it can be serious pain in the arse to dig out and dig through old crap. But this is heavy duty stuff for some of us, if you are able.

Martys NL, Magnificent Five, he told me it was coined by Pontiac promotions on early Birds. I had never heard of it before. He explained, I might have it half right - base 6cyl/ Sprint6/ base V8/ 400/ Ram Air. How close was that ?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

As far as I know "we" have no way in accessing what would be considered "true undeniable" proof in identifying a genuine Ram1 from a Ram2 during the transistion period - going by the price reflection of the option cost. That would seem like the most proof positive form of verified documentation that you could take to the bank. Take for instance a Car built in the last day or two of April through the first week of May time period. We don't know exactly what date the actual Car order was approved for build. And we don't know if that Car was charged the additional option cost, or the previous lower cost. It would seem like you would have to have the actual original window sticker (not repo) in order to prove on paper that this said example vehicle was indeed Ram2 genuine.

So then with that in mind, how does JM make the determination from the Billing History - without pricing - other than throwing a dart at a calender. I feel like I know how FredS did it, he had access to the Dealer Invoice copies along with the Billing History Card copies, for at least 68 and 69 model years. I have seen a copy of each actual form of documentation for both these years. I saved the 69 BHC, but failed to save copy of the 68 DI. Hopefully it caught someone elses eye harder than mine and they saved copy to disc.

I understand how the price change reflects to a dated period in time, and how it plays a role in determining a relative date for Ram2 release. I like the idea of having 2-3 forms of cross referencing factory literature versus the idea of throwing darts at the middle part of a May 68 calender. Let's try and establish an agreeable breaking point from the info we have presently. I might post some more observations later - keyboard needs to cool down for a while.

I have learned more about 68 Ram1/Ram2 in past 6 months than previous 20 years.

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

I think it's becoming a contest of who will run the loosest tolerances and thinnest oil now.

That's Truman's old trick.

Fred Simmonds established the production date on the birds by going back through all of the BH cards back in the late 80's early 90's. Jim has been using this date for all GTO's & Birds since then. My GTO is on the cusp - built mid May but no original motor. EUN's on the history cards show all zeros - nobody knew what was going in these cars when they went to the line - whichever motor was there when they got there was the one that went into the car.

[Cammer-6]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Cam, you have supplied a lot of heavy duty info in this thread. I had just read all 4pages for the first time right before my first response. Can you post the different data you thought you still might have for us to be able to educate others with ? I know it can be serious pain in the arse to dig out and dig through old crap. But this is heavy duty stuff for some of us, if you are able.

Martys NL, Magnificent Five, he told me it was coined by Pontiac promotions on early Birds. I had never heard of it before. He explained, I might have it half right - base 6cyl/ Sprint6/ base V8/ 400/ Ram Air. How close was that ?

It was 350HO(326) not the RA that was the other of the "Five"
the RA was an option on top of the 400,whereas the others were
separate engine/drivetrain options.
Billing historys have been modified to exclude prices.I believe that was at PMD/GMs request.
I honestly believe that if too much flack is taken by GM for providing this info it will simply evaporate.GM is not in the business of restoring old cars or info for them they are building and selling new cars.All else is just icing.
Im pretty sure that the document showing updated changes in the price schedules is enough proof as to the exact date of the RAI-RAII transition.That document dated 6/5/68 shows the 4/29/68 date as the rollover.
Prices posted do not concur with a document I just rediscovered dated 11/67 which showed a L67 price of 342.29 for A body and 616.12 for F body. The Fbody included the 345 option in that pricing.
Whats odd is the June 1968 document states the option price(stricken thru to reflect the increase) for the L67 was 357.29. Im going to dig some more and see if there was a $15 increase between 11/67 and 4/68.I SERIOUSLY doubt that someone got a RAII at the RAI price but learned long ago to never say "never" or "always".Stay tuned more to come.

[Steve Hoog]

BVZ the most important thing about Bruno is his bud totting Kanuk friends.

[fastwayfirebird400]

I bought a full dealer sales book back in the mid 90 and here is what dealers were given on the ram air 1 & 2 switch over dates codes and price increase. Enjoy !!

[fastwayfirebird400]

Here are the docs with out using PDF.

[fastwayfirebird400]

one more..

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

SteveD: I have to agree.

Okay, NOT looking to protest march on GM - NOT forming picket lines at JM/PHS headquarters. Just learning and teaching is all we're doing. I'm all for an April 29 break. I doubt GM or JM really regards anything posted on this Forum.

Here are some items to ponder -- not attacks. You guys should help fill in any blanks you can, and provide examples - and corrections.

I have never PHS'd a 68. And have not been collecting them on disc. Only have one blurry example of a 68 Billing Card. I hate to put The Boss on the spot, but why does he have a mid-May built RA GTO and not know from PHS or otherwise if it was built Ram1 or Ram2 ?

1. What exact date are they (PHS) using on the dart board/calender ?

2. Does the Billing History Card even give conclusive build date information ? If not - what the heck good is that guesswork ? Sometimes a week or weeks (and even some cases a month or more) can pass between build date on cowl and invoice datings. The build date of Car appears to be the key ingredient - since price is not disclosed. If they were able to determine by price - Boss would have more to go on than "being on the cuff".

3. From the few known matching number Ram2 vehicles - what is the earliest build date from them ?

4. Nobody welcomed dameyerfam to the Forum ! Welcome to the Forum dameyerfam . Pleeeease tell us all you can about your Car ! Starting with build date from the cowl tag ... Thanky.

5. Earliest head date known is D228. Complies with April 29 and later builds.

6. Most all appear to have zeros for EUN on BHC. But I seem to recall others have been encountered (68's non-RA) with same scenario. So no direct confirmation to that stigma.

7. You guys that have claimed to have had a 68 PHS'd and it returns as being Ram2, in what regard or form was that detail relayed to you ? Was it handwritten or typed out for you - or did it just show option 347 and you blessed the vehicle yourself with Ram2 status ?

8. Why aren't some of you Ram2 owners contributing scanned PHS documentation (I'm guessing it's similar to a 1967 packet with BHC and a dealer order form highlighted to decode the BHC) and supplying body build dates. Feel free to blank out or cover what you wish to conceal. Not enough data posted to this thread.

9. I think a lot of you guys are full of sh!t and don't know what Car you have or have not ! Let's see if that gets the ball rolling.

10. If PHS does not support your claim, or information concerning your Car, then it immediately becomes destined to the nearest lower step of the ladder. If we can't educate the higher power, we can still educate one another just the same.